Malcolm Burke

What does it take to cultivate musical excellence, build real connections with students, and navigate the unpredictability of teaching? Malcolm Burke brings a compelling mix of artistry, humility, and humor.

From middle school cello to collegiate conducting, Malcolm’s journey highlights patience, adaptability, and the power of listening. He shares practical insights on motivating students without falling into toxic competition, balancing structure with creativity, and creating meaningful musical experiences at every level. Along the way, we explore how small, human moments shape lasting impact, the influence of mentors and how to carry their lessons forward, and what it looks like to conduct with clarity, emotion, and flexibility while connecting with students from beginners to advanced performers.

This conversation goes beyond music, offering a grounded look at teaching, growth, and embracing the inevitable chaos along the way. Thoughtful, honest, and often funny, it’s a reminder that some of the best lessons come from the messiest moments.

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:08

Hey commuter, welcome back. Well, the day has finally come. I'm admitting that I accept PBIS. That's right. I accept it.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

What?

SPEAKER_07 0:19

The uh organization has reached out to me. What? And they have talked to me, and I fully accept PBIS. And if you don't know what PBIS stands for, the organization is Pathetic Banter Information Society. That's right. We have uh agreed to terms, and uh as part of that agreement, I needed to inform you today that the banter is below average. Damn. Ice is everywhere! I was just gonna have an iceberg.

SPEAKER_06 1:09

Sounds like a personal problem.

SPEAKER_07 1:10

With some ice.

SPEAKER_06 1:11

It's all right. I was just we were just talking about how Phil's at work, and he said he has to show up every once in a while. I thought that was cute, because I don't. Really, you don't have to show us. You don't have to show us, but thank you. This is all this.

SPEAKER_07 1:29

What? No, I just had a video fucking. She's like, did something break? No, I just dropped ice, honey. It's fine. No, no, it's just me yelling. It's normal.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Thanks very much.

SPEAKER_07 1:43

Thanks for the health check. I appreciate it. So we train leasons. You're screaming as they come. Don't mind me.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

You're fine. You just no. You're listening. This is this is as good a start to the podcast as we've ever had. Phil, how you been? What's new? You want to hear about my day today? It was a good day. I do. Um uh I left the house at a little before six. Uh, went straight to the Pablo Center to get set up for our concert band festival, and we had five visiting groups. Um uh in the middle of that girl's groups, I taught a lesson. Uh then I uh had a guest composer in, uh, Claire Howard, who's in the album. The Twin City composer. Yeah. Wonderful composer, wrote this piece over the blue and green, and she clinicked my band this afternoon. And now I'm doing this uh did a half an hour Tremont choir. Now I'm doing this podcast with you guys, and I got to race over to Pablo for a concert tonight with all three of our concert bands. I would say today is a busy day.

SPEAKER_06 2:46

Yeah. I mean, you definitely aren't in your pajamas or staying home.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Uh indeed not. Um, but I'm really enjoying this sort of uh watching Chris uh sort of do maintenance uh to his ice-filled studio.

SPEAKER_06 3:00

Did you spill the water too or just ice? Like how did ice get way down there? He can't hear us because he doesn't have no, he's really got problems. I'm sure he'll trim this down.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

One never knows. Peter, what's going on with you?

SPEAKER_06 3:11

What do we got? Also, uh actually, I shouldn't have had a busy couple days, but it's been a busy couple days. Um some events at the college that I've been brought into for some student teaching things and um tour for next year, so a couple little meetings, menards, getting fences ready for our gardens and our trees and all the things that are gonna go in this spring.

SPEAKER_04 3:37

And um what um is there anything about your sabbatical time that is not as you um had originally planned that has been a pleasant like uh thing?

SPEAKER_06 3:51

Yeah, I mean you know this. Um I have time to think. And I have time to like like I'll have a lesson with this guy, and then I get to spend two or three hours looking through the AI transcript and the notes and asking the questions. I got a bunch of documents open about the actual physical miming part, and then also um conducting ideas or questions, and he brings up less stuff. So I guess I I forgot what that feels like with house child marriage since grad school to be able to go into something artistic and just not have to leave for job responsibilities. That's been really fun. Um, other things that I've I didn't expect were how much work is always ongoing for the next year, right? There's always it's not like this year's done and then we do next year. I felt I could do that more when I taught middle school and high school minus the calendar, and that doesn't quite work the same here. So that's um but I've really enjoyed the ability to think more. And you know, as Claire's about to leave the house and we're about to be empty nesters in a couple years, a year, year and a half, that I think uh just trying to see how you know this can all go forward. This is exciting about the sabbaticals, it gives you kind of that thing. Anyway. Are you Chris, are you ready? This is so boring for everybody to listen to.

SPEAKER_07 5:19

Uh uh yes, I am ready. And uh actually my desk is clean now, which is a benefit. Um, and I'm you know, there's no empty nesting. I know my children will be with me forever. Well, of course. But the day-to-day physically. No, I'm talking day-to-day. I mean, one wants to be a creative writer and the other one a tuba performance major. So I mean, they're gonna be right in this house.

SPEAKER_06 5:45

Yep. You're gonna have to move out of your basement and let them move back in. No. They can have the garage.

SPEAKER_07 5:51

It's fine.

SPEAKER_04 5:52

But I heard he was double majoring in tuba and susaphone performance. Yeah, true. Yeah, because he wants to expand, right?

SPEAKER_07 5:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. It's all good. We're fine. Good. Great to see you. All right, who's the guest? Enough of this crap. What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_04 6:06

Oh, no, come on, give us give us like a little bit of a like a beyond the notes uh like update.

SPEAKER_07 6:11

Just a 10-second little I am pedaling as fast and furiously as I can right now. Oh my gosh. Only one one gear on the bicycle, though, right? And only one single gear. No, it's just one pedal. Is it more like a tricycle, really? Yeah, not even. It's unicycle with fire and plates. We're just getting into this.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

Our guest today um is a fabulous person. Uh they are um, that's what he starts with when he doesn't know what to say.

SPEAKER_07 6:44

That's right. That's a good lead.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Um I've got a laundry list of important things that I'm gonna inarticulately say. So just brace yourself, listener. Buckle up for some inarticulate introduction. Just for um this person that uh has a graph.

SPEAKER_07 7:01

Were they free on a flight or something or something? I mean, sorry, keep going. You're fine.

SPEAKER_04 7:06

That's what I thought. I thought. Thanks. Thanks for interrupting my introduction with some really good.

SPEAKER_06 7:10

Oh, I mean, I didn't say it, but I thought the same thing. I thought I was the first one.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

These are not earbuds. These are wired headphones. Wired headphones. You're in 2005.

SPEAKER_06 7:21

Good God. Okay, keep going.

SPEAKER_04 7:23

Hey, stop. You probably came out to the staff. I am I am not in a closet. I'm in my office at a professional place of business and work. And I'm an educator. And yes, I do have bright green headphones uh from 2003. Um uh got a bachelor's degree from University of Northern Iowa, instrumental music education, uh, at UNI, uh, studied cello and trombone, participated in numerous large chamber ensembles, served as a music ambassador, and uh head co-headed the school music music uh tech crew. So our guest um played in a skaba ska band uh called the Takeouts in high school, uh opened for some legit artists and repeat and released their own EP called Storytime. Uh, accepted and participated in a visual arts performance performing arts academy for high school, uh, and 2008 was um uh sort of labeled a Mr. High School uh as a friend as a first-year high school student on the math team, played a season of golf and two and a half seasons of volleyball in high school. You can ask all these important questions in just a moment, Dr. Haverman. Um uh served as assistant music librarian, not not full-time, just assistant, and community outreach person for a regional orchestra. Uh student taught in Colorado and Illinois, participated in multiple uh uh local fitness competitions and meddled in said uh podium uh uh fitness competitions, spent a month in Thailand and rode an elephant multiple times, and also swam with the dolphins. Okay, wait. Same elephant or different elephants? Well, again, with the great questions of Dr.

SPEAKER_06 9:05

Gleason. Oh, thank you. A cheap degree. Appreciate that. We're gonna get a lot done today, I can tell this. This is gonna be a Phil day.

SPEAKER_04 9:15

Um Yeah, no, it's going good. Uh, this should take another 17 minutes. Um just hang in there. Uh I like how you speak faster and faster as you get more nervous.

SPEAKER_06 9:23

Keep going.

SPEAKER_04 9:25

I'm not nervous, but I'm sweating. Um our guest is a doctoral candidate at the University of the Minnesota Twitch Cities, where he's pursuing a degree in conducting a wind band emphasis um under the tutelage of Dr. Emily Srynod. Additional to his studies, he's serving as a TA at the University School of Music and Band program. His teaching responsibilities include conducting and managing large concert ensembles and just aiding with all band events in general. Uh he has been the guest conductor of the Neoteric Chamberwinds, based in the Twin Cities, for their 2024 season. Peter shut up. Um he also serves as director of music at St. Barnabas Lutheran Church in Plymouth, Minnesota, completed a Masters of Arts and Instrumental Conducting at Central Florida with Scott Lubarov. And while Central Florida worked with all kinds of different groups there, before his graduate studies, he was director of high school orchestras for five years at Mason City High School in Mason City, Iowa. And that position as orchestra won all kinds of awards and uh did uh composer commissions and uh played at the um Northern Iowa uh Orchestral Invitational. In general, is just a fantastic um music educator in Iowa. Everybody, Peter, come on, tell us. Who is this?

SPEAKER_06 10:36

This is Malcolm Burke, my sabbatical replacement. There you go. Boom. I've seen this video background before.

SPEAKER_04 10:46

You have Malcolm, welcome.

SPEAKER_06 10:49

Look at us. There you go. We both have concorded bands on uh commuter.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

Yes, the the the score is two to two. We have some Eau Claire parapharaphernalia and two. That's true.

SPEAKER_07 11:00

That's right. There you go. Represent. It's true. Well, Malcolm, good to see you. Yeah, you too. Thanks for having me on. Um thanks for sticking through the banter. Most people just leave. They hear that first part and they're like, hmm, I'm out.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

Visual artist. Malcolm, are you a visual artist as well? No, I'm not. So it's visual arts and performing arts. Yeah. So it's just all of that. So there was um music, there was theater, there was visual art, and yeah. So I was in the performing arts for that.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

Um there was all this wonderful introduction that we did, but really all I want to know is what traps have you laid for Peter upon his return? What what have you done that's gonna really throw him off when he can return? I just can't learn everyone's name.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Dang it. I want him to go back and just like slowly but surely just be like, what's going on? Like lower his chair, the computer's just slightly to the left. Um his name tag is gone now. I don't know what happened to that. Uh they had mine and it was off to the side, and some students replaced it uh with like uh his and then his was off to the side, and then I came and like, uh, it's gone. Like two weeks later, though, it was gone. So I think someone walked off with it. So we'll need a new one for that. Because I'm taking my name tag.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

Maybe they'll spell it right this time. So, how did you uh uh have the misfortune of meeting Peter andor deciding you were gonna uh take over for him for a semester and try and fix everything that he's done wrong?

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Um well, great. I was gonna ask him a question, now he's gone. Uh I think we met, like he came up to me at a mid at uh Midwest two years ago, uh just like to introduce himself and like say hi and nice work. I was doing the Reynolds clinic that year. And I think that's the first time. Oh, wait, no, no. That's what it was. It was he would note the title of this, but he's the director of Encore, and then they had like a band day, so it was them, uh Minnesota Symphonic Winds, and then Grand Symphonic Winds, yes. Uh those so three, you know, Twin Cities uh community bands that were all together, and then Kevin Day was also a part of this project, and so I think he had uh commissioned, he worked with all three of the groups, they all performed a tune there. And then afterwards, me and then I was with Dr. Kenneth Green, who's the director of bands at Augsburg. Uh, we were just kind of going down to the directors saying nice work. And Dr. Hobram was like, hey, like I'm director of Encore. I might need some because I'm three hours away. I might need someone to cover a rehearsal or two. If you guys can share your contact, that'd be great. Just so I know I have people down here that could do that. So then that Monday I reached out and said, Hey, just like here's my contact. If you ever need anything, let me know. Uh then he said hi at Midwest. And then I was down in Florida presenting for their FMEA, and he called me, he's like, or texted me, he's like, Yeah, I got an opportunity. I'm like, okay, I just figured it's an encore thing. And then we called later that day and goes, go on a sabbatical in the spring next year. Uh, I want you to be my sabbatical replacement. Uh, oh, okay. Was not expecting that type of phone call. Um, but yeah, and I talked to Dr. Trindon about it, and we thought it would be a great opportunity, getting some like real collegiate experience before I'm out there in the field. Uh, and so I said yes. It's never been the same. It's for sure.

SPEAKER_07 14:31

Yeah. It's a good way to end that sentence.

SPEAKER_06 14:35

And scene. Um from my side, I'm just gonna get this out before we keep going. Um I had reached out to some retired national people, but they wanted to come in for just a couple weeks and leave. And I really wanted somebody to be there with all my 13th graders full-time. And so I talked to Dr. Trina and she gave me a couple names, but as I started snooping in the background on Burke, oh, I know Russ Kramer. Oh, I know Scott Lubroff. Oh, I know all these people. And I just started calling everybody, and no everybody uh just had nothing but amazing things to say, and they didn't know why I was calling. And um so that and then I got to snoop and watch them conduct at the Midwest, and I got to watch them do Neoteric, and I was snooping pretty hard, and then I was like, this is the one, and it's been great. It's been great. I get to do this every time I think about the band commuter. I got my arms behind my head, I'm leaning back, just relaxed. Malcolm's got it. He's the one. Band sounds great. Kids hate him as much as they hate me, so we're we're pretty good.

SPEAKER_07 15:42

It's cool. Malcolm, did you have uh uh parents involved in in the arts and music? What was the inspiration?

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Um my mom played piano growing up and like she would play, she took lessons and then she played in church um as well and did that often. I think she might have done some organ things. Um and then, you know, had me, but like wasn't really doing anything. So that's kind of beyond that. And then she never pushed piano lessons, you know, for me when I was growing up. Um and then in fourth grade I started, they in my district they start strings in fourth grade and then uh winds and percussion in fifth grade. And so in fourth grade I started cello. Um in the next year, I don't know why, but I was like, let's do a band instrument too. And uh I landed on trombone there, and then I just continued doing them. Uh there was, I don't know if I had already started playing, but there was a time that like we bought a keyboard and my mom uh was like, let's try teach me or whatever. And it was not working really well, you know, like parent, uh like mom, son, but then student teacher type thing, just that combination doesn't work. Um so uh yeah. Uh but yeah, so she was always supportive, um, but never really pushed any like music on me when I was younger.

SPEAKER_06 16:56

I love it. And how did you decide to make that a career? What was it that that put that in in the juice?

SPEAKER_03 17:03

Yeah. So I was thinking like pre-med or something in the medical field when I was like a junior, uh, but that same year I joined a youth orchestra, the Elgin Youth um orchestra, and uh I uh uh was in the second to top group my junior year, then made it into the top group my senior year, and that was with uh Randall Swiggum. Yeah, uh in the Wisconsin area. And so he was our conductor for that. And I don't know, for something about that experience, I was like, this is what I would like to do, you know, like everyone working toward this common goal and great performances, uh, and I just enjoyed the people I was with in that group, and I enjoyed what Mr. Swigman was doing. So I was like, I think this is the thing I want to be doing.

unknown 17:51

Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Nice, good network.

SPEAKER_07 17:53

So how is how is your you know, you you said you had a lot of uh experience with orchestra, you know, and teaching and so on. How has that impacted or made you give you maybe a different lens when you think about wind band and and so on?

SPEAKER_03 18:06

See, that's the thing. I don't know if I can answer that. Like I think because it's always been fifth grade, it's always been band and orchestra for me. So for me, it's just like music, you know. Um, and I don't know if I think about things differently. I think it's just the way I think about it. Some people are like, hey, you play cello, you can think about the line a little bit more. And to me, I think it's just what I do rather than I'm trying to shift my brain to be thinking that way. Um Dr. Beautiful and I were Dr. Hoberman and I were talking about he was at a performance of ours and he goes, How did you get them to sound like that? I'm like, I don't know. I just said this wasn't great. Try this, you know. Uh you suck, do it better. Where's my pen? And you know, I was just like, and if it wasn't there, I like adjusted it, you know, or like said, Can you try this? Can you listen to these people and try to mimic them? So yeah, I think I wish I had a better answer for you, but I think it is just everything's blended together. You know, I did a little bit of jazz, a little bit in high school, but more in college. Then I was in marching bands, I was in concert bands, I was in chamber on you know, the ska band. So I was just in all these various things. I think I just I don't try to put a hat on. I might adjust things to make sure I can fit, right? But I just for me, when I'm on the podium, I think I just kind of blurt and see what blurt anything out and see what sticks.

SPEAKER_04 19:35

Um so you mentioned Randy Swiggum, who we all know is a wonderful educator and obviously was a mentor of yours. I was wondering, and I know you have more mentors than just Randy, but I was wondering if there's like a trend or a thread that you identify with as your mentors that you try and emulate when you teach.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

Uh yeah, I think just their musicianship, you know, if I think about mentors and um on in a rehearsal setting and just the musicianship that they do and like their point of view that they have as well. Um, I think one thing I struggle with is being a motive on the box. Um, and a lot of my mentors don't, uh, but obviously it takes time to get there. Part of working at Concordia, there's like this conduct conducting certificate thing. I don't know why I said thing, it's a conducting certificate. And so, and so I have some students who are doing conducting lessons, and one of the students was just, you know, talking about their ears and like it's so much sound coming at me, and I can't decipher through it all. And I was like, yes, like that's how it is gonna be when you're starting on the podium. I was like, my ears are better than yours. Uh Dr. Hobberman's ears are better than mine. And then, you know, uh Professor Kirikoff, who's Dr. Hoberman's teacher, his ears are better than his, you know, and I was like, it's just experience and having that process. Um so you know, talking about a mode of like I'm moving the needle, uh, but yeah, so their musicality and like their emotion, and like there's just their knowledge, which I know takes time to get there and work, but I think that's something like I strive for also.

SPEAKER_06 21:08

Um, assistant librarian didn't make the full job. Like, how did that go with the assistant role there?

SPEAKER_03 21:13

That was the position.

SPEAKER_06 21:15

Oh, did Waterloo put everything in score order?

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Like, what what was I was I don't know if I was great, but I was being paid and I wasn't fired. Oh uh the Waterloo Cedar Falls Symphony Orchestra uh is like their home base is at the Gallagher Blue Dorn, which is a performing arts center for UNI. And so I think it might have been my sophomore year. A friend of mine was acting as that person. Uh maybe it was just even my junior year, and then they were leaving college, and so they asked if I could do that. So there was a musical librarian for the orchestra, right? A full on adult doing the thing. And then I would go in and I would do boeings, I would erase parts, I would make sure that. Like everything was in score order, that we had everything. So, yes, that was an assistant because I was assistant to the librarian of that organization.

SPEAKER_07 22:08

So Emily uh is a fantastic mentor, great teacher, obviously. What's one of the most significant things that you've learned from her during your time with her?

SPEAKER_03 22:18

Watching her rehearse and go after things, just the attention to detail that she puts in, not only on the podium but off the podium and like communication to people. One thing I used, gosh, I can't remember if I was talking to Dr. Dickie up at Concordia or Dr. Haberman, and I said something about like a teachable moment because that's something that she always says, uh, with especially with dealing with uh just students in the ensemble, right? And like how like things should be because if you're going to be entering the real world, you should be acting or asking for certain things in this way, you know, rather than just saying, oh, I got this or I got that. Sorry. You know, it's like, well, you have this obligation, you know, and like communicating. Um, but yeah, so I think just the attention to detail and going above and beyond at everything that she is doing.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

Um, hey, do you mind taking us back to your time when you were teaching high school orchestra and just talk to us about that a little?

SPEAKER_03 23:16

It feels like a lifetime ago. Um yeah, so uh I was doing both band and orchestra, both trombone lessons, cello lessons, also you and I did senior recitals on both and whatnot. Student taught you and I was great in this regard that like you can student teach literally almost anywhere in the country, and they just have like representatives that will go and watch you that are they have kind of verified. So I went to do my elementary placement out in Colorado uh with Paul um Carberry. He is like an ORF master, you know, uh and like had done a workshop at UNI. So I went out there with him. Then I was gonna student teach in Illinois, and there's just I was gonna do it with my trombone teacher from high school, uh, but the district said no. So I reached out to Jason Flax, who's the was the Brath choir director at the Elder New Symphony, and I was like, hey, need some help. Can you help me out? And he said, yep. Uh so it was a husband-wife team, and so I was student teaching at Geneva. And during that student teaching placement, uh, my I was looking for jobs, you know, and I figured being in those bigger areas, I would probably have to start at an elementary or maybe middle school, and then just kind of weave my way through the district or whatever up to high school. And Dr. Burkhart, who's the orchestra director at UNI, uh, she emailed me and was like, hey, Mason City opened up. There's high school orchestra and then part-time band. So it's like you're in both worlds still. I think this would be a great opportunity. I was like, okay. So I applied, interviewed, and on my way home, they called me and said, Hey, we'd like to offer you this job. And I was like, sweet. And I was talking to Jason Flags about it, and he's like, You want to be in high school? Why is might as well just start there, you know? Like you could always come back to Illinois if you want to do that, but now you would have that experience. So I did that. Uh, so I did, like I said, high school orchestra. So that we were lucky enough in the district to do pull-out lessons still. So I had one rehearsal, and then I had six other periods, five other periods of lessons. Uh but then the orchestra was small enough at the high school that that's where the band lessons were coming in. So we had a six-day lesson cycle, and then I would rotate. Look at that.

SPEAKER_05 25:30

Hey guys, I'm sitting in the car. Malcolm, good to see you.

SPEAKER_06 25:33

Yeah, you too. Meter, this is Randy Squiggum that just joined us that he was talking about the the one and only Randy Squiggham. Right.

SPEAKER_07 25:39

Malcolm was saying beautiful things about you, Randy, about your inspiration and all those uh those good times. He threw something at him once, he said, but other than that, it was great.

SPEAKER_05 25:48

He deserved it.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

Um nice to see you. How's it going?

SPEAKER_05 25:52

It's going great. I've been uh following your uh trajectory of your career, Malcolm, and it's been pretty exciting. You know, this is like every teacher's dream to watch a student succeed and succeed like for all the right reasons. And so it's been exciting to watch you. I mean, I'm looking at a screen of teachers, and we all we all know this feeling really well, like watching a student like make a difference. Because, you know, that's there's no greater joy for a teacher. So that's you. Thank you so much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:19

He said some pretty nice things about you as a mentor before uh you got on the screen. So that's nice.

SPEAKER_07 26:23

So how old was Malcolm uh so what are your recollections of Malcolm back in the day? Let's go down that road.

SPEAKER_05 26:30

Well, actually, the the two main things are he was really a good musician and he worked really hard. Like he brought all this stuff, you know, he brought his he brought his A game all the time, but he was also pretty quiet. Um do you remember that, Malcolm? Like you didn't you were not a hot shot. Like, look at me, listen to me.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

You showed up and did the work. That's what that's what I do every day. Just try to do my best.

SPEAKER_05 26:53

I also remember lots of people really loved you. Like uh uh, you know, your peers, your colleagues, other kids in the orchestra, they everybody was fond of you. I think, you know, you just have had a sunny personality. I I hope you've kept that. Are you still sunny personality?

SPEAKER_03 27:06

I try to be. You know, sometimes working with Dr.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Haverman, it makes it difficult.

SPEAKER_06 27:11

But um Malcolm, I wanted to ask um if you could go back to those first few years as a teacher, what could you what would you tell yourself now when you were a younger teacher to help yourself maybe grow faster or or whatever? What would you say to your younger teacher's self?

SPEAKER_03 27:28

Um probably practice, you know, uh, which is funny. But like, well, like think about it, like your your first couple of years of teaching, like you're just trying to survive, right? And so a lot of things go out the window of like, we'll say score study, or because you're just trying to figure everything out. Um, and I think that's one reason I feel like a lot of people should go investigate and getting a master's is to get better at conducting, you know, and working from the podium because that's where you do a lot of teaching. And how many times are we at conducting symposiums and we're trying to work on gesture and like you're meeting these people for the first time, but you're trying to do something. And some people like when they figure it out right there, like, oh, that was cool, you know. Um, you only get at best two semesters of conducting, and that's why you're doing all this stuff, other stuff during your undergrad. Um, but yet that's a lot of what we do, especially if you don't get the opportunity to do pull-out lessons and just build those students' foundations up um and like musicality up. I think being a better rehearser and conductor would be beneficial. So that's what I mean by practice, right? Like practicing those skills, um, probably recording as well, uh, to kind of see what the students are seeing, like, oh, that was my fault, you know, or that could have been more concise. Um, and then probably just keep working hard, but give yourself more grace. Grace.

SPEAKER_07 28:56

Is it appropriate to ever look at the trombone section? Asking for a friend. All the time.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

All the time. If you want to have good time, you know, that's what that's the section you go to, low brack.

SPEAKER_06 29:06

Got it. Yeah. I don't know. When I think of good time, I think of well, a good time, I think of Phil and Chris. When I think of good time, I don't think of Phil and Chris.

SPEAKER_04 29:16

I just gotta say, I mean, did I know this is uh maybe mundane, maybe not, but did you split practice time growing up between the two instruments like religiously, or did you just go hot and cold?

SPEAKER_03 29:27

Um depends on how much my teacher yelled at me the previous week. No. Um yeah. So I would try to do it like it'd be like not hot and cold, but it's like what needed more work, you know, like where I was. But I was doing both lessons on cello and trombone. Uh, and then my trombone teacher also is like really well versed in jazz. And we try to do some jazz lessons here and there, and I think it was just too much for me to be trying to learn that like uh medium while literally trying to learn these two other instruments and get better at those as well. Yeah. But I loved like loved participating in jazz and still love it and like listening to it and whatnot.

SPEAKER_07 30:11

So Malcolm, who's uh what what's uh a composer or a piece that really has caught your fancy? What's something that you're you just can't get enough of right now?

SPEAKER_03 30:20

Well, right now, uh we're in the last cycle here for Concordia, and what Dr. Auburnman has done each year is that they vote on the band votes on what they want to play out of what they've done for the year. And one of the tunes was uh John Mackey's Frozen Cathedral. And that piece was actually like most of my film for my DMA uh audition tapes. Uh I was I did at UCF. Um and so I think it'll it's kind of cool to be working on it now and like you know, three, four years later, um, and just kind of sit with that and like you know, this that piece started me on this journey here um to the DMA. So yeah.

SPEAKER_07 31:06

So how has that changed for you now that you're in a different space? That's the question.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

I feel more calm to be honest, you know, like when I first did it, that was I mean, it's a 14-minute piece. Uh doing high school orchestra, I was not doing and like just string orchestra things, I was not doing anything that long. Uh, and I had done longer pieces as well, but not just 14 straight minutes, right? It's multi-movements like the chamber works at UCF. We would do a chamber concert every semester. And like, I'm like, okay, here's 30 seconds while someone empties out the spit valve, swap the read, you know, whatever. Um and I think of that, there was just I was thinking about applying for DMAs, you know, which is ironically, I'm applying for jobs right now too, but there's a sense of calm, you know, and just reassurance that I have now, more so than what I had um when I was doing this piece with UCF.

SPEAKER_06 32:06

And I think you think that's because you're coming back to the piece because you're three years older, you've done longer works. Why do you think that calm is? Or maybe a mix of all that?

SPEAKER_03 32:17

I think it's a mix of all of it, you know. Like obviously you come back to it. Now it's been three years. It's like, okay, how much do I remember? What are I what am I doing? Um, but three years older, and why is there a question mark? Um so uh, you know, why is there and then like I think my musicality just because of the amount of music and uh the type of musicians I had experience working with over the last three years have pushed me. Uh and so I think I'm just at a stronger place, you know, still wanting to grow and still needing to grow. But yeah, so I think it's a mixture of all those things where it's just I feel more at ease doing this type of thing.

SPEAKER_04 32:55

Aaron Powell So I mean Malcolm, you have all kinds of free time right now. So I assume you're playing several hours of volleyball and golf and f doing physical fitness training, you know, for you know, five, six hours a day. Isn't that isn't that right? Which does work out a lot.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

What's a lot comparatively to not doing anything? Yes. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 33:11

Well, you're looking at a week. You're you're looking at what not working out looks like.

SPEAKER_06 33:16

You got three of those on the screen. But I'll call him or he'll call me and he's like, well, I just got back from the gym and I was like, oh, all right. Yeah, there you go. Right? Hey, you go on walks with Louie, it's all good. I I I'm not sure. It's a good thing. It's a good thing, Malcolm.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

And Chris is able to get off the floor from spilling ice on this router, you know.

SPEAKER_06 33:36

That crouching on the floor was his exercise.

SPEAKER_07 33:38

I was winded. It's not it's not easy. Randy Swiggum, ask a really intelligent question.

SPEAKER_05 33:44

Yeah, I uh Malcolm, I'm very curious because I'm gonna conduct the UI so this weekend in two weekends, I'm gonna do the Vaughn Williams London Symphony. And I'm just curious what sticks out in your head from those maybe you talked about this before I cast today, just taping. But uh what what sticks out like a memory, especially like an affective memory where it's looking for those moments, you know, that like have a lasting impact? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

Um I think when we did uh Rach Mononov's second symphony, um like that really stuck out to me. And I think that's probably one of the largest pieces that I'd like done up to that point, you know, probably for sure. Um and like that's no easy feat, you know. And I think walking away after all the hours spent on like uh on rehearsals on that, walking away, feeling proud of that uh is something. I think that's why a lot of people there is a community aspect of like music, right? But I think when it's done really well and people can walk away feeling like that was awesome. Like we did that thing. Uh I think that's also a very powerful moment, right? Because everyone's practicing, like if they have a solo, they're doing that, but I'm practicing this part because we're intermingling here. Um, and then putting all this together when we're all spread out, especially with like an EYSO um organization, but even at a high school, right? All types of different walks of life, different ages, grades, and so we all kind of come together and like do that thing. Um, and I think that's great, especially when you have friends within the group, too.

SPEAKER_05 35:24

I have to explain what you just described as somebody who hasn't been in a band orchestra or choir, right? It's real I mean, I think people who watch bands play or orchestras play, they they imagine what you're saying, but it's not the same as like being in the midst of it where you literally feel you're you are depending on people around you to be 100% engaged the whole time, right? And I think like you you were well, you were an exceptional high school student, but um that's what kids like you bring to the game is like that's what they create, right? The sense of like I want to be around other kids who are willing to sell out kind of the way I am. Ragmaptuo, did you play cello or trombone in that? I don't remember. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 36:03

I just want to make a note here that the moment that the three of us stopped talking, and it was just the two guests. I was just the quality of the program, just we had Randy on before.

SPEAKER_06 36:14

He is already more intelligent than we are. I mean, we kind of talk after this.

SPEAKER_05 36:18

Here's the deal I think about these things all the time like you do, but I don't get to talk to you guys very much. You know, it's always a special treat to be in in the presence of any of you. And this is just kind of thrilling for me because like seeing on the screen, it's like this is memories of great rehearsals, memories of great concert. Uh like again, as a teacher, you pour yourself into a lot of kids, but it's only some kids that go on to do what you're doing. Like you're going on to do what we all do, you know, the guys on the screen here. So, and uh otherwise, you know, if you were just some random dude, it would just kind of catch what you're talking about. Well, like us. Yeah, I don't know. That's the best. No, you're the opposite of random dude.

SPEAKER_06 37:02

But um, so Malcolm, maybe let's let's let's let's talk about that. What do you think it maybe you could take this either way. What's the same about teaching beginning cello lessons to a 10-year-old as teaching students at the University of Minnesota or Concordia or Central Florida? And um like what's the constant in that? Um, and then what do you find as the most challenging part of being a teacher?

SPEAKER_03 37:25

Um uh the commonality is patience, and the most challenging thing is having enough patience. Uh well done. But yeah, I think one thing uh like it's just you need to probably say things multiple times, right? Um, for things to stick, but then also trying various ways. Um, like you say something this way, okay, it didn't stick. Like we'll say conducting at like for a cello student, try teaching this way, say it. They didn't do it at Concordia Band, you know. I say something or do a gesture, it didn't quite stick. I'm like, okay, so let me try this other thing with both uh scenarios, didn't really stick. I'm like, okay, let me try this other thing, still not there, but maybe we're in the right way. Then I go back to the original thing that I did, and all of a sudden it's like boom. And you're like, what? And so that, you know, just multiple ways and having patience and getting there and being willing to be flexible. Um just not every student is the same, but then also not every ensemble is the same, right? Even like the I'm sure all of you know with your ensembles, it's like, okay, this was great. And then you do the same thing the next year, but it's a different group. And you're like, oh, that thing that I did last, okay, what let me try this. Um, yeah, and then the I think that is probably then that's what I mean by having enough patience. The challenging thing is you don't know what will stick, and you don't know when that student it will click for them. I mean, another conducting certificate student, I think, asked about that. Um, and I was like, yeah, you know, like you could say the like of the scenario I gave three different ways, and then you go back a month later to that, maybe that first way, just because that's how you normally do it. And then all of a sudden the student is finally ready, and like the brain is ready to accept that way. And you're like, Oh, I'm like, I get it now. Like, we could have been a month at ahead by now, but the brain wasn't ready for it yet, and you're just you have to be okay with that, and just like I'm glad you you're here now. So let's kind of kind of push forward now.

SPEAKER_07 39:33

Boy, that really resonates. I I I think back to like beginning tuba lessons with kids, and the trumpet players would come in and they could already play like hot cross bunts, and the tuba players are just trying to get an F. And we would have an hour and a half with them, and I'm like, I can't do it with them for an hour and a half because they just one don't have enough air. But it's like the curve isn't always standardized, you know what I mean? Like it just takes time. Like you're gonna do the fundamentals, but you have to break it into smaller chunks for some kids and for some instruments. Like, we try to standardize so much. So what you just said was like, yeah, chunks, right?

SPEAKER_06 40:10

It worked this way to teach cut time to seventh graders this year, but you do the same thing next year, and it's a total failure, right? So, okay, what what does this kid need? I mean, that's what I really liked about Malcolm's conversation too. It's like right when you feel you've got it as a teacher, you realize son of a I think it's also experience.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Uh so uh the Concordia band has open rehearsals. So if a student's visiting, that they can come and sit in on a rehearsal. And a couple of weeks ago, uh, there's a tuba player, I think they were a sophomore even in high school. And after rehearsal, I was like, hey, how was that? And they're like, I haven't seen, you know, some of those notes or some of those like uh both actual pitch, but then also duration at all before, you know? And so and then there was a piece that a student uh conductor was working on with the Concordia band, and we were talking about this one spot where there was like um sex tuplets in the bassoons, you know, and like all above the staff. And I was thinking, and then the flutes and oboes had similar things, and it's just like the students haven't really seen this yet, you know. Flutes, oboes, they've been doing it all their life, essentially. Uh, and so that is also like you just gotta put that in perspective. Like, who am I talking to right now? Have they experienced this thing before? Because sometimes that leap from high school, like if you're even even if you're the best player at your high school, but you're a tuba player, you're probably not seeing 16th notes and not a lot of stuff that towards the uh uh top of the staff. But if you're then all of a sudden you go to Concordia band and you're in there, you're like, oh my gosh, like what's going on? But you're good enough to be there. You just need an adjustment period with flutes and novos are like, yeah, we got you, we're all good.

SPEAKER_04 41:52

I got one more like legitimate question for you, but I'm wondering, um, what's it like when you take off your um academia uh teaching hat in school and you put on your church musician hat? How is that different?

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Um again, because I just like it's old music for me. I don't know if I really adjust it. And that's probably bad. Um, but uh the thing for me is like what I needed to do is that some of the musicians like in that group, um, like they didn't know how to read music. Like what they they knew where their voice kind of needed to go based on where the notes were on the staff. But if I said, hey, can we all start on the beat flat here? They were like, some of them, not many, but they were like, I don't know what that means, you know. So then I was like, okay, I would say I my normal thing, can we start on a B flat? That's measure four, beat three, the quarter notes, uh, and then like maybe text, and you know, if there was that, if there were in the middle of uh like a uh ooh or whatever, that's a little bit more challenging. But so I just did various ways of explaining where I want it to like start and whatnot. But then also I would um I try to give them to my the best of my ability a little bit more time in between, uh just because it was later at night. Um they've been talking, you know, all day or whatever, just around people, so they're in their voices where I think in instrumental groups I can just kinda go, you know, uh especially within like a two-hour rehearsal. I really don't think about that.

SPEAKER_04 43:29

I just kind of do you find some fulfillment though in working in that uh in that venue in that way?

SPEAKER_03 43:34

I did. So I did that last year. Uh then they wanted to go back to Wednesday nights and I was doing the Concordia thing and I was like, I can't make that work. But it was cool like to have that experience, you know, and to be able to work with the voices and like choir when I really haven't done that before and see how I would do things differently if I would, if I was getting the same results, I wasn't using baton for that. So I think I kind of got good with some hand gestures potentially. Um yeah, I think it was just fun and having right. Look at that mind work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_06 44:12

I was gonna give you another hand gesture, but I figured I'd leave that uh screen.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

Point your finger right to the nose, right?

SPEAKER_06 44:22

You got it on the nose.

SPEAKER_04 44:23

Malcolm, we have a specially designed speed round for you uh that's short. Just five questions and uh just uh try and make your answer as stupid as the question. Um basically, how cold does it have to be in Moorhead before people start complaining?

SPEAKER_03 44:42

I don't think they do. Like that's the thing. They're too tough for it, you know? Well, uh for Peter.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

Yeah, negative 25 for Peter. Um uh how how tall is the statue of uh Martin Luther on the campus uh at Concordia Morehead?

SPEAKER_03 44:57

Couldn't tell you.

SPEAKER_04 44:59

That's right, no one cares. Um uh who who's the mascot for uh the University of Central Florida?

SPEAKER_03 45:06

Nitro.

SPEAKER_04 45:07

Yes, Nitro. Uh check one. You get a ding from Chris on that. Um famous musician hailing from Mason City, Iowa.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

Uh Meredith Wilson.

SPEAKER_04 45:16

That's right. Uh or Russell Kramer, you know. Is it true that Russ is retiring this year?

SPEAKER_03 45:24

He is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:27

Uh and this could be any grad, but a famous grad from the University of Northern Iowa.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

Sorry. I was thinking Minnesota for a second. Um a famous grad from University of Northern Iowa. Yeah, you and I. Malcolm Burke, of course. No, not me.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

That's right. He was uh quarterback for the St. Louis Rams. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

What's his face? Kurt, right?

SPEAKER_04 45:48

Kurt. Kurt Warner.

unknown 45:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

Warner.

SPEAKER_04 45:51

Kurt Warner. There you go. We'll give it to you. First name, that works. That's uh a correct answer. Um drafted by the Packers. Didn't work out. Um and then last question here favorite kind of restaurant or food, if you had to choose.

SPEAKER_03 46:05

Depends on the day, because I like food. But I would go probably Indian.

SPEAKER_04 46:09

Okay. Thursday? Favorite food for Thursday. Yeah, on a Thursday. Or it depends on how you're feeling that day.

SPEAKER_03 46:14

Yeah. Oh, it depends how yeah, it depends on how you feel that day.

SPEAKER_04 46:17

How you feel that day. Okay. All right. Um then uh let's see. Peter's favorite food. Do you know? No. No. I don't know. All of it? Yeah, take it. But you had if you had to guess, if you had to pick up a guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

Some uh some Detroit-style pizza. And good stuff with hot honey. It's pretty close.

SPEAKER_04 46:37

Yeah. Uh it's actually cauliflower. You wouldn't know it, but uh Peter really likes cauliflower. Um it's okay. You know, it's just important facts of the day. Uh Malcolm, uh anything that you want to pester Peter about right now? You know, mistakes that he's made, uh things that you're having to clean up after him? We've talked online uh offline about this.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

So I see him.

SPEAKER_06 46:58

Or online. You you can send a list and we'll include it in the show notes so that uh they can talk about all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

That's just the rolling credits then.

SPEAKER_06 47:05

Yeah. Crap that Hoberman does poorly. That's the answer.

SPEAKER_04 47:09

Yeah, does he leave like uh empty coffee cups all over the office that you've had to clean up? Oh, I took him home.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Spilled coffee during our honor band weekend. He was trying to like do creamer, and I'm like, you're spilling coffee. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, this is our table. Like, what are we doing here? Um there's also a lot of hair in his office. I don't know because sometimes I'll I'll pick it up and then it just shows up. I'm like, where is this coming from? Because it's I he's been gone.

SPEAKER_06 47:35

But look, it's not from me. Like, it's not my hair. I got no hair left.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

And they're very large clumps. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. So but a lot of hair in that office.

SPEAKER_05 47:44

This is literally the first podcast I've ever heard this topic discussed in my life. And I listened to a lot of podcasts. So wow, guys, you're breaking new ground here.

SPEAKER_07 47:52

Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Great stuff. That's why you haven't heard of this one.

SPEAKER_05 47:58

I feel laughing about the lightning man when you asked, like, who's the most famous grand or a famous grand from uh Northern Iowa? And he he pauses and he's like, wait, I heard uh University of Minnesota. And this to imply there aren't any, right? That's that's the way it's the way it sounded. Okay, I'm safe, it's northern Iowa, not Minnesota. True.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

He said Minnesota, and like I was like, well, Haberman's there, but I can't say Haberman, so I was gonna go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_06 48:24

Not famous for that.

SPEAKER_04 48:26

No. Uh well Malcolm, it's a pleasure to do this. I do know that uh there's no that no way that uh Peter would ask anyone who isn't like an absolute um spot-on bullseye teacher and musician to cover for him. Like the I the list is basically one person, and it's you. So I mean that right there I just know that you are you're basically tops, man. So uh thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_04 48:50

Yeah, great to see you again, sir. Keep up the great work. Yeah, I'm welcome.

SPEAKER_06 48:54

And and Randy, thanks for joining us too, buddy. Yeah. We got to get Randy on. I'm putting him on as a I'm gonna put him on as a this is your Randy quote.

SPEAKER_05 49:03

This is enough Randy that the public is demanding today, is it, right? Um until like 2028, until 2028. You're coming back.

SPEAKER_07 49:10

Yeah, but I want the commuter to know that Randy is actually commuting. So for the first time, we have a commuter actually someone commuting during the podcast. So if you want more if you want more of Randy, commuter, write in. You gotta write in and vote for Randy. We'll try to be still next time.

SPEAKER_04 49:29

Peter, look at that. I mean, he your replacement is it's most definitely better than you. Look at this. Yes. We've proved it.

SPEAKER_06 49:37

I um uh what what you said at the end is true. Um he he just impressed me all the way through, and there's very few people that do. And uh the I think my favorite thing about him as a teacher and conductor is what I mean, he is a hard worker and he's a great musician, but he has insecurities in all the right places to continue to have him grow. Like every time he I have a question for you, okay, and he tells me the situation, I'm like, well, what do you think you should what do you what do you want to do? Well, I think we should do I think uh do this. That's great. Uh it's always exactly what I was planning on doing. He's got all the right instincts.

SPEAKER_04 50:14

He's just you know that's that's something that all three of us have done with our mentors our whole life. We're just touching baseline. It's like, is this really what we're supposed to do?

SPEAKER_06 50:23

Yeah. But you know, I mean, I think it was also just when Russ, I mean, Mason City, the five years of teaching there and doing everything he did. Uh it's just once you've been in the schools and you've had to figure that out, right? Oh, that didn't work. Let's try this, and you become a teacher of students, the age starts to not matter. I mean, you get to do maybe higher level musical concepts or you move faster, but his success at 512 there or 912 and all that is what really um I think is what's continuing to lead to a success, besides, of course, his musicianship and his work ethic.

SPEAKER_04 50:56

It's just I mean, this is the first time the director of concert bands has um ever worked out in that position.

SPEAKER_06 51:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:02

They've been waiting for decades.

SPEAKER_06 51:04

It's horrible.

SPEAKER_04 51:06

Well, I meant like physic physical fitness. I mean, there just hasn't been a lot of things. Oh, that worked out well, that too. But everybody's working out.

SPEAKER_07 51:12

It's both and kind of statement. Yeah. You remember that part where Randy and Malcolm were having a good conversation? Um, that was exciting. That actually was good. I wrote down stuff. It was good. That spot when they were talking about how you connect with people, like I knew that he would make a connection. He would love that. But like you connect with your student and then all instantly you go back to that time. Have you found that too with your own students where you just kind of like get transported back to those that era?

SPEAKER_06 51:41

I go back to moments in how I remember that student, right? Like their solo in Ms. Lenka 4 or that, but often they'll remind me of things like, oh, you were there when this happened? Like, you know what I mean? Like I don't have that type of memory, but yeah, it's I just those events, those affective moments of them and my, you know, personal relationship with them is where I tend to go back to.

SPEAKER_07 52:05

But I something fun I actually did at Patrick Marsh is I took a picture of each group, basically from my first year, and we put it up in the hallway. And so for 18 years, there's these, and I don't know, they probably tore them down at this point, but it was fun to walk by those, and even when I go back there to go pick up equipment and stuff, um, which I'll do soon. Thank you, Patrick Marsh. It's fun to go see those photos because it takes me back immediately. I'm like, oh, I remember, I remember what we performed, like it just all comes flooding back. Phil, do you remember your students? No. Okay.

unknown 52:38

All right.

SPEAKER_04 52:40

No, of course I do. But they're in different pockets. So um I, you know, uh yes, it's pockets of time, but it's also like, oh, I just played a jazz gig with this double bass player who I taught in brass tech 20 years ago. You know, and he's like, Yeah, I remember you at brass tech. You were interesting. All right. Um, it'll be uh third clarinetist that I had, you know, 12 years ago in Symphony Band who, you know, has gone on to do like incredible things that I did not expect that they were going to do, but I didn't have the you know once-a-week interaction that I have with all my Trombone players. You know, I see them once a week for a private lesson. I mean, those people I have invested so much time with those people on a one-on-one basis. And so the connection is deep and vast.

SPEAKER_06 53:29

All of them I you know, I remember and know what they've uh been out to uh at that time and then since I was listening to an interesting podcast, not like this one, um, and they were talking about face blindness, and then there's like that opposite where there's these people that'll see somebody once 20 years ago and remember everything. And it's funny because I'll see someone's name, but I see their face. Like if I look at an old program, like you were talking about those pictures. But when I see an alum at a concert, like their name is right there, whereas I'll be like, Oh, oh, what was the name of that? And you know, but when I see their face, it's just like all that stuff comes back. I was actually just in town today and I saw a student that um was a non-major and played in bands for a while and is now out and is managing and all these things. And I was like, Oh my god, Danny, good to see you. And uh he was like, Oh, you remember my name? I'm like, Of course I remember your name. But I couldn't have told you about him ten minutes before, but anyway. So that's cool about your pictures. I love that.

SPEAKER_07 54:26

Well, there's a face that I'll never forget, and that face is Paul Kyle. That's right. We have a band buzzler. Uh, this is the reveal. It seems like three months ago. It might have been, but this is the answer to band buzzler number nine. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

Welcome back, commuter. The answer to last episode's band buzzlers from the pen of composer Alex Shapiro, whose goal she says, is to simply align note after note with the hope that at least a few of them will actually sound good next to each other. The excerpt you heard was from her 2010 work, Paper Cut, which arose from Alex's desire to compose something relevant to younger players, which also made the musicians themselves part of the action. Papercut has the band members doing choreographed maneuvers that look as compelling as they sound, recognizing that, as Alex says, music isn't just melody, it's rhythm, texture, and sometimes optics as well. If you guessed right, your prize is a hearty, do-it-yourself pat on the back due to a lack of funds in the Beyond Artless bot podcast bank account after the last round of t-shirt shipping reimbursement checks went out.

SPEAKER_07 55:47

Oh, Paul Kaya. Oh boy, no. That's funny. That's pretty good. All right, we got one more buzzler left this year. So just the season. We've got we got one more. Man, stuff is we're wrapping up. We are we closing it up. Yep. We're heading out the door.

SPEAKER_04 56:06

Yes, no one has been asking for extra episodes this summer.

SPEAKER_07 56:10

Nope. Nope.

SPEAKER_06 56:11

Uh, how are we doing on that uh uh uh deep series for all those uh people that are paying for the subscription service and all those extra things? How's that? A lot of refunds.

SPEAKER_07 56:22

Um we do have a bamboozler. Bamboozler. Bamboozler. Um here we go. So the bamboozler is this it says, uh dear gentlemen, public uh school band teacher here. Lately I've been wondering if I'm accidentally sucking the joy out of music for my students by overfocusing on precision, competitions, and quote, getting it right. At the same time, if I loosen things up too much, the ensemble falls apart and nobody improves. From your point of view, where's that line between structure and creativity in a learning environment like this? How do we push students to grow without turning music into something they just tolerate instead of love?

SPEAKER_04 57:03

Well, the fact that that person's asking the question suggests to me that they're aware, you know, that they're already aware of the issue enough to solve that problem in a contextual way. It's the person that's not aware of the problem that's the problem.

SPEAKER_06 57:16

And I would say that the opposite of excellence and striving for excellence is not boring or not fun. I think the opposite of excellence is, you know, lack of care. And I think the opposite of boring is interesting. So how can you create interest as a teacher? I mean, that's where the art of teaching lies is not in the curriculum or the expectation, but how you draw them into the experience along the way. So are you asking questions? Are you making every day different enough? Are they listening? Are they writing? Are they uh conducting? Are they on the podium? Are they listening uh you know, I I don't know. Uh how are you making it raising that level, but um making it different and putting the fun in the fundamentals that they're learning? That's what I'd say. I also that's the hard part.

SPEAKER_04 58:05

While I'm not necessarily proud of it, uh early in my music career, I was a pretty competitive little bugger. Um I was constantly watching what how what my colleagues were able to do well, and I was subtly gauging myself against that a little bit. I was like, oh boy, that person can do some stuff. I was aware of it. Um while that that certainly did not lead to a lasting love of music, it motivated me. I'm not I'm not afraid to admit that that was part of it as a young person. It doesn't motivate me as an old person, like not at all. Um, but uh for some of our students that the competitive bug is a motivator. And I think when it's curated and healthy, um, it is okay. It's when it becomes the primary motivator that it is not okay.

SPEAKER_06 58:50

No, I think that's that's well said. I think there is a competition to especially to a standard. I remember doing Son Ensemble and loving those experiences just because you got to work on something besides you know, concert band and big band jazz stuff. Um and then I went to college. I'm like, when do we have Son Ensemble festival? And they're like, we don't do that here. And I'm like, huh. That's a real loss. And then realized, oh, there are juries every semester. So there's a there's a version of that, right? But also it was like, well, what about large group contests? Well, you don't need that often in the collegiate level because you're all there because you want to be there and strive towards that. Um, but yeah, I had that competitive side that I I wanted to do something in that way. It's good.

SPEAKER_07 59:35

So we're gonna we're gonna end the show with uh tell me one thing you learned today. This is your exit ticket. This is a new idea. Uh we're gonna do exit tickets. It's the only way you get to leave.

SPEAKER_06 59:44

Randy Swiggum is smarter than we are. Affect him right to affect of that. He did. Bastard, I love that. So good. It's just good.

SPEAKER_04 59:52

Stabs in the heart. He's got words. To date, the only person I knew that played both trombone and cello was the longtime professor at Indiana University, David Baker. And now I know a second person like that in Malcolm.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:06

And I learned that spilling ice on a router is a bad thing. Okay. All right. This is um high quality podcasting. Beyond Artless is sponsored by Beyond the Notes Music Festival. Our mission is to create and provide profound learning and social experiences through music that go beyond the notes. Visit BTN Music Festival.com to learn more.