Tony Marinello III

In this episode, we journey through the eclectic world of conducting, education, and cultural authenticity — with a side of humor and some self-deprecating confessions. Our guest, Dr. Anthony Marinello III, is an exemplary musician and educator (and self-professed Commuter) who shares insights on everything from embracing the non-linear career path to the importance of humility, authenticity, and even a mid-career crisis or two. Get your pencils out as Tony shares a treasure trove of great ideas, quotes, books, podcasts, composers and authors to check out. Peter, Chris, and Phil are still trying to spell their own names. 

Key Takeaways:

• Embracing the chaos: Careers don’t follow a straight line—thank goodness! Our guest’s journey from dentistry to music illustrates how the "multiverse" of possibilities keeps life interesting.
• The power of humility and curiosity: Approach students and colleagues with respect and a willingness to learn. Be flexible enough to change your mind and your sound.
• Authenticity over stereotype: True artistry comes from bringing genuine heart and cultural humility, not just imitating or appropriating.
• The importance of mentorship and identity: From LSU to Virginia Tech, mentors shape us immensely, emphasizing that relationships and feedback are the real game-changers.
• The value of risk-taking: Sometimes, the best moments happen when you decide to "go for it" despite fears and uncertainties—like risking a rehearsal or an emotional risk on stage.
• Cultivating community: Whether rehearsing socially or on stage, building trust and respect within groups makes the magic happen—and even a broken window can be a teaching moment.
• The influence of podcasts and psychology: Exploring the human element—feelings, shared stories, and vulnerability—can elevate ensemble performance and leadership.
• The importance of "telling your truth": Show up, do the work, be authentic, and stay flexible in your creative and professional pursuits.

Resources:

• Learn more about Tony here
• Illinois State University
• Work of Adam Grant – Rethink, grow, and challenge your assumptions
• Mark Brackett’s Emotional Intelligence – Cultivating emotional literacy in leadership
• Ira Glass’s Creative Process – The patience, craft, and time needed to develop mastery

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Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:07

Hey, commuter, it's a big show, it's a long show, so this part is gonna be short. Here we go.

SPEAKER_04 0:30

Phil, happy birthday, buddy. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Let's sing. Happy birthday. Allison got me at opera or rehearsal. Uh I was not expecting it, but she stood up to, you know, it's for the OBA to give the A, and she just launched into Happy Birthday in Rehearsal. Which was followed immediately by a lecture from a conductor about how we weren't behaving properly in rehearsal. Seriously. Not joking. Conductors are assholes. At times. At times. Especially with their torso.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

That is their open torso.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

The following day, uh my band uh got me as well. But they did happy birthday on all the keys. At the same time.

SPEAKER_04 1:14

12-tone version. Yep. 12 tones. All the time. All the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

So yes, I had lots of birthday wishes. That's nice. That's good. That's good. Um also, if I didn't mention it, Chris was very kind. Um, and he sent thirty t-shirts, proud commuter t-shirts, uh that that um feature you know the podcast to the entire Tremont choir. So there's a couple pictures out there of the Tremone Choir all wearing Beyond Artless t-shirts. That's something. Uh it was it was a lot. It was a lot. And then did he not also send you a box of just like uh chips? Uh Chris sent me a box of single serve uh Chips Ahoy cookies. Like around 150 of them.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

Now, what starts with the letter C? Cookie starts with C. Amazon's a beautiful thing. Uh yeah, and a rather inappropriate jib jab card, too. That was I enjoyed that one.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Uh my son thought that was the best of the birthday presents.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

It was absolutely good. That was nice. It was good. Yep. Um, and yeah, I think that was a real human with Phil's head on it that did all those things. Yeah. That was confusing. Yeah. No, that's that's legit. Yeah. It's blurry. Hey, today we had graduation at Concordia. Yeah. In the books. Done. Yeah. But you mentioned it, but I I don't think you were on campus for that, were you? I was to say goodbye, but all I did was conduct Stars and Stripes. Malcolm did all the work. Sweet to go, Malcolm. There you go.

SPEAKER_05 2:41

That's good. Excellent. And you showed up on time?

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Early. Had lunch. Malcolm and I had lunch together. And Caleb. There you go. She's amazing. You guys know Caleb Bones? He should. Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

I saw Chris last night. What? That's right. Yeah. What was Chris doing on the wrong side of the stage? We sat, we sat next, sat next to each other. That's right. Yep. Made fun of the concert weekend.

SPEAKER_05 3:01

What did the one symphony do it's a little Maslanka piece? It's not, it's short.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Oh, they do child's garbage. A short five-minute, 35-minute mini symphony. Yep. Nothing mini about that one.

SPEAKER_05 3:16

And John announced that. He goes, This is 35 minutes, and there are audible groans from the crowd. And his response was, Yeah, you're gonna have to pay attention. You know, this is gonna test your attention. That's great. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

It's nothing like hey, just so you know, it's a 35-minute piece. And at the end, it's really gonna leave you more thinking than happy. Right. So, that's why we made it last. You're welcome. But it was brilliantly performed. Brilliant performed. It just sounded great. Yeah. When's your concert next week? Me? Yeah. My concert was on Wednesday. I'm all done. Cool. Tremon choir Monday, band concert Wednesday. Telling you. Lining them up, checking them off. Birthday, you got it all going on. Oh, hey, tell them about uh playing at the senior center thing. That was awesome. Uh Chris has it on his Facebook page, but uh the Tremont choir every semester, the day after we play our concert, we go to a nursing home. So we've been to like now darn near a dozen of them in Neauclair. Um and uh at this this one we went to most recently, Wendell, who's a resident uh in the memory uh care unit, uh, is a trombone player. And he had a nice con 88H that he had out and ready to go. And I figured, of course, you know, Wendell would just hold his horn and enjoy the concert, and that's it. But now I played two tunes, and Wendell just ambled right on up and joined the first trombone section. Yeah, he did. Yes, he did. Did a great job. It was just fabulous. So, yes, shout out to the Coretta special Senior Living Center. That's awesome. Love how you do that. It was great.

SPEAKER_05 4:58

I need to do nice things. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Chris, uh, how about you? Uh hey, getting ready for a little festival coming up. You guys coming? Never heard of it. Huh. Yeah. It's gonna be fun. I haven't had a shot with that.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Do we have do we have any like um do you have naming rights for uh to be on the notes festival? Uh sure. You what do you want to name? Well no, I wonder if you'd like to do it. Big corporate sponsor, you know, like the name Fontango Phil Tango? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:24

There is a group playing Fontango.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

I saw by the way. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:27

That's uh that's exciting. So it's coming back.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

I'm excited. Like the the Bass Pro Shops uh you know, beyond the Beyond the Notes Music Festival. Yeah, Bass Pro Shop Notes Festival.

SPEAKER_05 5:39

Hey, I appreciate you bringing that up because we do have some fantastic corporate sponsors. Let me name them now. Voigt Music Center, Birch Creek Music Performance Center, Madison Youth Choirs, Ward Brought Music, Hyde Music, uh Bob Rogers uh Silent Stage Podium.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Podiums!

SPEAKER_05 5:56

Con Selmer and Growth Music, thank you to all those lovely people. And if you too would like to sponsor the festival or um this awful podcast, just uh let us know. Not not Bass Pro Shops. Okay, all right now.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

Well, it was a good guess, not yet. But they got that big pyramid place out in Memphis there. That's exciting.

SPEAKER_05 6:13

People will think you set that up, but that that was actually authentic. So that was nice. I should mention them, all these people before the end of the season. A couple times, actually, probably would be nice. Probably more than more than once, yeah. But no. Good partners, good people helping out, all the benefit kids. So life is good.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

The other thing we should mention is our guest. Our guest today, see the smooth. Was that smooth? That was good. It's almost like we knew what we were doing.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:38

Um this one's got a lot of interesting tidbits. Um I'm gonna take some time on the on the thing. Even if you know who they are, uh uh would love for you to wait until the end because there's I think it's gonna help steer our podcast into so many amazing directions. But of course, this person, just like Sean Hayes, has a theater story, always in the kitchen. But um they were on stage one. You've got Sean Hayes? You've got Sean Hayes. This is going well. I love this. I said wait. I said wait to announce. Oh, okay. But that's right. You did say that, didn't you?

SPEAKER_05 7:14

I couldn't meet myself.

unknown 7:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

Um, but they had to stand on a piano on stage with another singer on the piano, scared of heights, thinking they were gonna fall, play their instrument the whole time. Quite good. I liked it. I was laughing. On stage for one musical. 15 minutes of fame, right there. Fear of dying. Um at LSU, they were a drum major. And I don't know if you remember, but you remember when the kicker got uh in a fight with the marching band? Yeah. Yeah. That was him and his roommate. That was him and his roommate. Look at that, right? Pretty fair. Like a 6'4 kicker, and you got like two two, you know, uh marching band people. Who's gonna win that one? Uh, we know. This person had their name changed at band camp and it stuck for the rest of their life. Which I thought was interesting. It's a very funny story. Okay, this person grew up in New Orleans or Nollins. They went through a Catholic school system, even though they're not Catholic, and um I just find that that might be something really interesting to talk about, uh, that that type of process. Then they went to LSU. They were late to music, gonna be a dentist, gonna be a dentist, but it'd always been in music, right? But that wasn't gonna be their job, and finally they realized they're they're calling. It's good. Gotta go to the dark side. Yeah, you know. I mean, you were math, ear engineering, what were you? Okay, well, go on. Okay, keep it. You're gonna make choices. Um then they've got this cool year and a half thing they do with the high schools, but they they worked at a high school uh in in the area for about a year and a half with uh uh Lee Hicks. And then How long? A year and a half. How long? Year and that interesting. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, okay. Year and a half, 1.5. Okay, got that. How many months? Anyway, uh uh but then they went off to Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, where they got a music ed masters. Look at that. Um I'm gonna hear a lot more about that, going to CCM for Music Ed. And then they taught for guess how long? A year and a half. A year and a half in Ohio. That's right. While they were there, they did the UT conducting symposium and felt like it was over. They're never gonna do something like that. Again, this is not for them. And then one person just happened to say, Hey, nice work this week. You really grew a lot, you should do more of this. So that's sort of that. Then they taught in uh Texas for a year. Not a year and a half, just a year. And then with this master's and this teaching, they just started applying for these jobs. And the next thing you know, they were the assistant director of athletic bands at Virginia Tech for two years. Then they went off and still no, still no doctorate, no conducting degrees. And the next thing you know, they're the assistant to the director of bands at the University of Texas for four years. Um, finally did their doctorate in conducting, an amazing teacher mentor, all those things. Uh, the person that started the commission for Come Sunday from Omar Thomas. Their group has performed multiple times at conferences around the country and the state, won the American Prize in 2021. This person has won multiple educator and teaching awards at different institutions and um Grammys and all that stuff. Uh, like George Washington, they cannot tell a lie, which is why Chris Gleason knows who this person is. They are the ISU director of bands, Illinois State University Director of Bands. This is one and only Chris? Oh, I know. Tony. This is Tony Marinano.

SPEAKER_05 10:33

I know that's it. That's my guy. And uh and a proud commuter.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Well, he's very junior. Oh, very proud commuter. Uh yeah, I actually, I don't think I told Peter this, but I was originally um, you know, I listened to a number of podcasts, but I try to get as far away from, you know, what we do on the daily in my podcast listening. And so, you know, I saw it and I uh ended up getting have, you know, uh having a great relationship with Steve and Beth Peterson when I got here to ISU. They were always so very supportive and still are very much so. And um, I saw the episode with the two of them, and they had just recently moved after their retirement, and I missed them. And so I just listened to it on the treadmill. And um, you know, then I got hooked and I was like, this is incredible. This is all the best parts of going to a conference, seeing people you know or don't know, and really just finding that you're not alone. You know, like you're not crazy, you know, other people are dealing with the exact same things. It's very validating in that way, but also inspirational. I hear, you know, different ideas and the way people tackle a lot of the things we all deal with.

SPEAKER_04 11:47

Anyway, I uh I believe we've well, I know I've received, but maybe did we all receive an email from Tony a couple of years ago? Yes, we did. And it was really nice and saw him at a conference. I'm like, you've got to be you've got to be a guest. So I hooked him up to be a guest, but then I just said, you know, we kind of need an emergency guest every once in a while. Can like I just maybe call. He's like, sure, if I'm ready or you know, whatever. So this is not an emergency situation, but I appreciate that. Now I'm gonna need another emergency guest in case something falls through. I don't know. Maybe I'll call Erica.

SPEAKER_05 12:18

Yeah, so told him a week and a half ago, and I asked him, I go, Hey, Tony, you want to be on the show? And then he's like, uh which I know you as a jerk.

SPEAKER_04 12:30

I know you because our last recording says you're like, hey, I just worked with Tony Marinella. He should really be a guest. And he stared right at me. He was like, Yeah, that could be. It was fun. Just pushing your okay anyway. I know exactly what you were. I knew at that moment that something had happened. So of course Tony could not tell a lie, and then Tony goes, in in complete honesty, I have to tell you, I just met Chris and we were working, and then this happened. Like, I knew it. I knew it. That was fun.

SPEAKER_05 12:53

It's good. Good to see you, buddy. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_04 12:56

So I went through all of that. I went through all sorry. No? This is Phil, Phil, Phil. Tony, delighted to meet you. Same. It's great to meet you. Um so, Tony, you have worked in a lot of different states, and you keep going back to public school teaching, your um, I guess, path, as somebody might call this, right? Um, didn't follow a normal trajectory. Um anything you want to share with our commuters about that or why that happened, or thoughts as now you're a mentor to many people looking at a path like yours.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Yeah, I I tell students all the time that there is no prescripted path. You know, it's easy to fall into that trap of thinking I have to do X and then I do Y and then I do Z, and then I'll reach the promised land. Uh, but the promised land is really just wherever you are, you know. Um, you make every you work hard, you try to keep growing. I think one of the coolest parts about what we all do for a living is I loved being in school. I loved this idea that it I could be selfish, you know, and it'd be about me and my growth. And now I get to still do a little bit of that, not as much as being a student, but like you're gonna keep learning, you know, and so just wherever you end up, just keep keep growing. Don't become stagnant, and it'll end up being, you know, grow where you're planted, right? Um, and so, you know, different, it's we all have these things where you look back on these moments and you're like, man, in the multiverse of my life, this could have gone so many different ways. So I don't know if y'all are Marvel fans, you know, like there's you know, there's one where I could have ended up, you know, as a dentist, or there's one where I could have ended up, you know, staying in this spot my whole life, but this is just how it happened, you know. So um, I just w recently worked with a student who, you know, we all had this. They get out in the world and they start, you know, making their way professionally. And this student's in his second year teaching, doing a great job. I went and heard his group, fantastic, and got really bummed about a couple things that had happened and was like, I don't know if this is for me anymore. And I went, whoa, buddy, it's year two. I didn't even start my doctorate until I was 35, you know, like so, like, there's no way, you know, prescribed way to do it. I had a friend years ago who used to say, I hate it when people talk about, you know, they go go to you know, grad school and they talk about I I teach my four years of public school teaching. And he said, It sounds like a prison sentence, you know, like I had to gotta put my four years in, you know.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

It's totally true. And we then he said it said another podcast, but when you look back, people are like, oh, well, that's just a direct path. You know, Phil started in this state and then went here and then went across the country over there, and then went back over here to this. And it's like, have you ever been in a yellow truck? It is like not a direct path at all. And um, and going forward, you just don't know what that's gonna do.

SPEAKER_05 15:55

I love that. No, it's true. Life is not linear, it is not linear. And as our mentor for the podcast would say, as you were talking about that, Tony, it was uh the words of Jerry Young came to my brain who would say, you know, it's not where you are, it's who you are. Also, that's a good one, man. Yeah, so true.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

Yeah. Um, okay, so you mentioned at any moment your multiverse could have been changed, but I know that um maybe you were bumped along like a pong ball into certain directions by different people that were really instrumental in your life. Um would you want to share some of your mentors at those different junctions that that moved you from this school to this place and who you met and just how they've influenced you?

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah, I mean, I could I can think of like specific people and specific moments that opened up. Um, and if, you know, if you need to cut any of this, it one of the things you'll realize, uh, you know, Peter when he reached out to me was like, you know, we'll just want to make sure you're feeling comfortable and this, that, and the other. And I was like, listen, you're not gonna have trouble troubles with me talking. You're gonna have troubles getting me to shut up. Like I'm so yeah, I think, you know, like I like uh Peter mentioned, I I grew up in the Catholic uh school system. My mom was a Catholic school teacher. Uh I was not raised Catholic though, uh, but growing up in New Orleans, it's a huge, you know, part of the culture down there. Um, you know, our our school program was 30 minutes once a week pull out sort of thing. And and it could be at any moment the teacher could say, nope, you need to stay. You're not finished with your math or whatever. Uh, but one of uh I my parents enrolled me in private lessons with a gentleman named Mike Scorsoni, and he then put a lot of students from these smaller programs at these different schools together in like a springslash summer middle school band. And so, like, I'm so fortunate that my parents, you know, hooked me up with him, decided to get private lessons through him, and he was doing this thing to serve all these students. And so I got to have, you know, as close to a traditional junior high band experience that, you know, many students may not get in in that situation. Um, and that kind of lit up a bit of a spark. Um, then I got to high school and in in in the Catholic school system in New Orleans. Uh uh high school starts in eighth grade, and I have a September birthday. So I started high school at 12 years old. Um, and so I told Peter that I went to sleepaway band camp as a 12-year-old with 18-year-old seniors, and it was quite an eye-opening experience. So, um, which sidebar, that's why I am now Tony, because in one of our first rehearsals out at Southeastern Louisiana University, a fellow clarinetist named Tony Laiuza said, Hey, so what's your name? And I went, Oh, I'm Anthony. And he goes, Yeah, no, we're calling you Tony now. And I said, No, no, no, actually, I I prefer to be Anthony. Uh, my dad is called Tony, you know, my grandfather was I'm the third, right? So there's kind of a we each have our own name within it. And I said, No, I I go by Anthony, you know, and he goes, No, it's Tony. And literally from that point forwards. So it's it's so interesting that my my parents still were, you know, call me Anthony and all that stuff. But it's, you know, sometimes there's just like almost confusion. But luckily, my dad also went, you know, between to you know, Tony and that stuff. So it's we're kind of used to it. But uh I got to high school band and my my my high school band director was named Jay Hadell. Um he's uh unfortunately passed away now. He was an incredible jazz educator. Um, and so he was the he was the king of like just make it work, right? I mean, our band never met during the day incomplete, you know, as a full band. So we only rehearsed after school as the full group. Um, we had like parts of the band and one that met every other day, sort of thing. Uh, but I remember being, you know, at that point, 13 years old, I had turned 13 and hearing Clifton Williams fanfare and Allegro and sitting in the clarinet section and going, what even is this? You know, like, and just that that the harmony that he wrote and his orchestration, I didn't know that it was called orchestration, but I'm just going, this is not what I was doing at Lafernier Park in the summer, junior high band, you know. Um, and so that really kind of hooked me. Um, and so then I ended up going to LSU and had a lot of great mentors there. Um, as Peter mentioned, I went, you know, I had okay grades, I guess, you know, in high school. And it was really a big push as a college prep, you know, to go into, you know, challenge yourself, doctor, lawyer, what have you. Um, and so uh, you know, people, you know, counselors are saying, you should look at pre-med and you've got these grades and great test scores. And I picked dentistry because it seemed the less icky, the least icky, you know, it's like I won't have to like go inside people's bodies beyond the throat. You know, it's like at least it's controlled. Um, but at the end of the day, people would say, Why do you want to be a doctor? And it's because I want to help people. And so, like, I feel like I I very much do that. I just do it through something completely different. Um, so uh, but I I just happened to go to LSU, right? And when I decided to go to music, and oh, by the way, there's this great band program, this incredible school of music. Uh, I auditioned for Steve Cohen and I auditioned in January. Um, January seems to be a very important time for me. It's where a lot of jobs started, but um, and I went and played for him and he said, Okay, uh, I'm I want to see how serious you are. It doesn't even make any sense for me to take you in the studio right now because uh you'd have to take freshman theory that starts in the fall semester. It's sequential, so you're not gonna really take any classes. So I want to see if you're serious. I'm gonna set you up with a doctoral student, you take secondary lessons. Come back to me at the end of the semester and I'll see if you're serious about this or not. And so I guess I did enough, and he had let me in the studio, and the rest is history. Um, and I always say he's one of the greatest. I had so many great mentors at LSU, Steve Cohen, um, Jim Bio, which is he's the reason I wanted to do a master's in music ed. And we got to read this cool book that was not even published yet by this guy from the University of Texas named Robert Duke. And uh turns out that he was uh my next door office neighbor when I got to Texas, which was like this kind of surreal full circle moment. Well, and I actually still had the um, I still had the manuscript that we read as undergrads with all my little notes in it, and you know, like, oh, my mind is blown, you know, and all this stuff. And I brought it to his office one day and I said, I I need to show you this. This, this really, this was really a touchstone moment for me where I knew educate music education and and education in general is just really important to me. And I I just wanted to wanted you to know what an influence you had on my life. And in total Bob Duke fashion, he looks down and he goes, That thing looks like hell. I'll get you a new one. So the next day I came to my office and sitting right on my desk was the published copy signed by him, inscribed on the inside. Really nice note. And it was like such a meaningful moment for me. But uh, and then obviously Frank Wicks and Linda Morehouse, you know, who, you know, absolute titans, you know, in what they do, got a lot of great stories about them over the years. Um, then I ended up at Cincinnati doing music ed, and Ann Porter was the reason I went there. And but I got to study a little conducting on the side with this guy named uh Terry Milligan, who was very influential in my life. And then down the road, uh ended up eventually at Virginia Tech and met Dave McKee, who was like my big brother. He was everything I needed at that moment in my life, personally, professionally, emotionally. Um, and then ended up at the University of Texas uh and got to spend a lot of time. Two amazing mentors uh who I I credit with so much. Um, obviously Jerry Juncan and then Rob Carnahan. Um, we were there together for a while uh before he went to Miami and all that stuff. And um so yeah, it's it's uh there's so many people in all of our lives that it's like, man, if that person hadn't been in my life at that moment, I don't think I'd be here right now, you know? So cool. Love that.

SPEAKER_05 24:24

Um, hey, other than these uh these two um who just hop on this podcast to just make up stuff, I did some research because get what? I knew you were coming on. Okay, so you've commissioned a lot of music. You've been working with some amazing folks. Here's my specific question: what is the influence, or how do you feel about the the overlap that's taking place with like hip hop and rap and so on, with wind and kind of a European style, you know, band and all that? Like, what's that what's that Venn diagram look like to you and what's that future look like?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Oh man, uh so the person you really need to ask about that is Omar Thomas, right? Because he actually, we've had a lot of discussions about this. Uh and really the question is that, and this is kind of one of the philosophical questions that I am thinking about, what even is genre anymore? You know, um, you know, a great example of hip hop and all that, you know, and mixing with what we might call classical music, right? Is um, you know, uh Will Healy's passages, right? Which Rob Carnahan commissioned. We performed last year. Um, and that was like, I will say, you want to talk about, you always want to keep growing. I learned so much about live sound and what not to do through that process, as well as how to work with people who don't read a lick of music, right? And um, and rap and how rappers in particular operate, um, as well as what happens when one of your rappers cancels a week before the performance. No. And yeah, thankfully, Spirit Child was available and Will Healy scrambled, and we were able to get spirit here, but that was a crazy moment. And it's like, and you know, talking to Will, he's like, well, this is how stuff works all the time in New York. You know, it's like, oh no, can't do it, gotta find somebody else. Um, and unfortunately, so we had to bring in spirit from New York. Um, because contrary to popular belief, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna drop a bombshell for your listeners here. I hope the commuters are ready. Bloomington Normal is not quite the hip-hop mecca you might think.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Well, let's sit back, let's say that again, just to make sure. So Bloomington Normal is not the mecca for hip hop and rap. No, no, write that down, Chris. Write that down.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah. Yep, yeah. So uh, so yeah, all that to say, you know, I think that begs the question of like, you know, what is genre? And where I keep thinking about all that stuff are we've all performed, conducted, performed all that in some amazing concert halls, right? If you say concert hall, everybody we associate with in our profession knows what we're talking about. But I think it's really interesting that there are so many musicians I know that have all these other interests, musical interests, that were never part of that stage. And, you know, and so, and but does that make that less, you know? Um, can you I mean Kendrick Lamar won a Pulitzer Prize, you know, and there's gotta be something to that, you know. Uh, and you know, if you l I mean, I love his I actually his album to pimp a butterfly, I highly recommend. It's it's intense and obviously it's got a couple bad words, but like it's it's pure poetry set to music. And uh so all that to say, does that I mean, some other people are recognizing that that is art and that's what we do. And so why does this space, why can't it be for everybody's art? And um, a lot of that started with when we did come Sunday the second time. Uh, we did a five-year anniversary to the day, and we brought Omar back and all that stuff. And I had a former student, Ladarius Young, who was a freshman when we premiered it and had was in his first year of teaching, had just graduated when we did the five-year anniversary. That's awesome. Yeah, and I I called him and he said, What are you doing, Dr. Marinal? Are you just trying to exclude me from this piece? Like I feel like, you know, he came to me after that concert as a freshman and literally with tears in his eyes because he grew up in a gospel church. He's still very active. And so when we did the five-year anniversary, I said, Can you bring musicians from your church to come with us? Right. And so they came and worked with us. And what was interesting was I had to learn real quick. I would point to the score. And when I pointed to the score, these incredible musicians, they recoiled as if I had a cobra in my hand. And they went, you know, like, we we don't read music. And I went, My apologies, let's start over. So then I would say, listen to this, have the group play. Is that how you would do it? And then they go, nope, you know, and like start, you know, messing with stuff. And I said in front of everybody, I said, My apologies, we didn't bring you here because you need to read music. We brought you here because you're the experts on this music and we need your help. And so they ended up coming to the concert. And after Omar, you know, said something about, you know, wow, it's really great that they came. And I, and I made the, you know, it's just kind of this conversation of even if we are playing music that is part of what they grew up with, the fact that it has not been, it's been viewed as not really part of this stage, there had to be an active invitation to say, no, really, we we really want you here. And I even almost screwed it up in in the first meeting, right? So I think there's a lot to that um and how we find new avenues of collaborations. Um, because you know, some people will say, Oh, that's cute or whatever. I I maybe, but it's there's certainly, you know, we did a collaboration with a mariachi ensemble and redid parts of La Fiesta, right? Mexicana. And when someone might say, Well, it's it's yeah, okay, but that's not part of the concert venue or what have you, I'll say, have you ever seen a video of a mariachi walking into you know a 70-year-old grandmother's birthday party and how how much she's crying in that moment? Like if art is about making people you know moved in some sort of emotional way, that seems like art to me, you know. So um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:42

I love that. I absolutely love that because I've been wrestling with the concept of music appropriation and that I'm seeing and honestly becoming more aware of how often that happens. Um, our choral colleagues, I believe, are kind of are out farther ahead of us in that just because of the nature of text and so on. But I think in the band and orchestra world and so on, there are too many examples of folks that aren't connected to a culture at all who are profiting from writing something in that said culture. And what I love about what you just talked about is like authenticity. You're bringing the heart and soul of that work and coming in as a visitor, but asking and being having humility enough to say to him, I'm sorry, you know, like, right, let's that's not part of this. That's not why you're here. Like, you're the expert. Um, I love that, Tony.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

So good. I appreciate that. I'll I'll share another collaboration I'm really proud of that I I it's I called it my Lauren Michaels uh moment. So uh Peter or uh uh excuse me, Chris, you came, you were here Thursday night um last week, the night before we did our last Wind Symphony concert. A former graduate student um played uh his name is Use An Choi. He's uh he's from Korea, he's here in the States, he's now doing youth orchestra conducting and stuff. He and he's my age. He was supposed to conduct before he graduated, but he ended up having to cover the orchestra, and so he couldn't conduct the Wind Symphony. But I I said, you know, before that, what do you want to conduct? And without hesitation, he said, very short on a Korean folk song. And I went, you know, it was like, but Joy, like you're Korean, you know, like surely there's another piece that, you know, is not written by John Barnes Chance, you know. Um, and he said, I love that band piece. He goes, but I've always felt like some of the percussion writing is not correct. Um, and I said, Great. And he said, I kind of had this idea, like with, you know, with how you brought in Mariachi and changed parts of La Fiesta. Could I do that with Korean percussion? Great, do it. So then I hooked him up with Jordan Yi, who teaches up at Matiya Valley High School, and uh he runs a Korean percussion ensemble at his school. So the two of them collaborated and rewrote some of the regular percussion parts. And then we he brought his students the day of the concert and we rehearsed together once before the concert, and we inserted a big Korean percussion section that Jordan had taught his students, and it was absolutely fantastic. And so again, it all came to the thing of Jordan said, This is how it should be written, and and then he even gave some sessions for our music ed students, where a very uh high our music ed is our highest population in the school of music, and like and he's a band guy, he marched cavaliers, you know, he did all, you know, he does all the he teaches marching band, he all that stuff. And he's like, I just wanted to learn more about this, and so he partnered with the Korean Percussion Society in Chicago, and then here we are. And so just that idea of like trying to bring some legitimate authenticity from people who have it, it is their culture, and say, help help us make this more right, you know, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

Tony, do you feel like that pursuit of authenticity was um it it must have evolved to where it is right now, like in the first part of your teaching career? Was it something you were particularly aware of? Or because I certainly was not. Well, not at all. Not at all.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

And and it's I truly like I won't go into specifics, but all of this is truly born of one uh like a couple of particular embarrassing moments that I did not and you know, things I did not intend, but I learned later how they came across. And it was like, so I it's not like I'm trying to, and listen, I I get it. I'm a middle-aged white guy. You know, it's it's none of this is trying to be the savior. Yeah. None of this is trying to be the savior. It's truly about educating myself and in the in the process, educating my students. And Omar said it really best. He had this quote of, why can't we be more comfortable with walking into a classroom and going, I'm not really sure what this is, but let's learn together, right? And so that's why it's great to bring other folks in and say, teach us, you know, we want to know more, you know.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

But it's based on it's that there's it's based on a a concept of humility that that you approach students and teaching always with respect and humility. Um, and not everybody makes that leap. Well, I wouldn't say I always do it.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

We're all human. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

Yeah, but there's a flexibility. You're you're willing to re-examine something or not not take it um at face value, right? Like this piece by John Barnes Chance no longer is is valuable, and then there's somebody telling you that there there is, and we can maybe maybe we could do this, but we can adjust this. Or here's La Fiesta, it's Al Reed, but inspired by actual events, and now we can make it more authentic. Um that flexibility, willingness to change, rethink. Um not everybody has that.

SPEAKER_05 36:02

That's a Midwest session. That is a Midwest session, Tony.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Put that in. Let's go. I don't know. I I I get I I've given two presentations at a clinic at us at our state conference, and I dread them. I mean, I enjoy it when it's over. I enjoy it when it's over. I I have like I've thought, and people are like, oh, you should talk, you know, you should do a thing. And I'm like, I just I I don't know. I still live in this idea that like any day now, like even the thought of doing this podcast is like, okay, too many people are gonna go like, this guy's full of, you know what. He that what, you know, so I feel the same way about like that sort of thing. So um, you know, just like, oh man, somebody's gonna stand up and find me out real fast.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

I got another question for Tony. Google bubbles on a different talk completely, but um, I get the feeling that you are really good at identifying student strengths and encouraging them. And I'm wondering, you know, we all have students, all three of us have students, you look at them and you're like, oh, this student has got it. And I'm wondering if you can rec can you identify what that what it is, I guess, or how you know a student is going to be successful and then how to encourage them.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

So, oh, that that's a lot of there's a lot of thoughts there. Um, so first of all, my wife says that my best quality, but also the quality that sets me up for disappointment most often, is that I always see the absolute best in others. Um, and I, you know, and and I I I think I I think about people that did that for me. And so it's the kind of thing of like, it would have been easy to discount me at certain points, right? And so I I always want to keep my eye out for the hidden gems, you know. Um, and some of my colleagues here at ISU, we kind of have that attitude of like, you know, we're really proud of ourselves when we find these hidden gems. Um, and they're all all of our students are really wonderful, but sometimes you find, you know, and I saw this at Virginia Tech um as well, where it's this kid who just there's something there, right? They have the it, right? But um maybe they haven't had the same access, the same resources. And so then when they get in a community like like what we try to build, they just explode. And so that to me is really exciting, you know. Um that being said, though, we talk a lot about the it, right? Um, and I remember uh uh it was Ann Porter in my grad in my master's degree. She one time I said something about an undergrad, like this cat, that kid gets it. They just get it. They're gonna be really good, I think. And she goes, Yeah, you're right, but what is it? And can we teach it? You know, and so that's what I think, and I think you all agree, like everything is a skill, right? So can we just identify the skills? And you know who's been really influential in in that is uh Adam Grant's, uh, his podcast. Yeah, as well as his book hidden his well, in his book Hidden Potential, that's like basically says stop hiring people for previous experience doing the thing you need them to do. Instead, look for the skills that show that they're you know a learner, that they have grit, all these things. You know, they recover, they're reflective, you know, all that kind of stuff. Um, and so I I think at the end of the day, that's it. And and I I I you know, what I know of the three of you, and everybody I think that we all respect and we all think wow, there's they're doing great work, they're continuously learning and changing, you know. Um I I always say like the worst, the like the worst thing I could do is like hit the pause button and say, okay, I'm now gonna replicate this for the next 20 years, which is like part of like I've kind of hit this mid-life crisis, but not like in my life. I've hit this mid-career crisis of like, okay, I think I know a few things about how to teach, and my ears have gotten okay to be able to diagnose and you know, have the tricks that all of our students are like, I need the tricks to fix it. And it's like, you just got to go figure them out. You know, you listen to somebody else and you steal what they said, and then you make it your own, you know. And I I can't sit down, I can't sit here and like write these down, write these down, you know. Uh, but what I can do is tell you to go out, watch people, and then you write down what they say, and then you start trying to assimilate it, you know, and try to make it your like make sense to you. Um, sorry, I've got I got a field there, but yeah, I just um I I I want to know what's next. Like, what am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to be from here on out? So anyway.

SPEAKER_04 40:51

Wait, I want to I want to follow up a little bit about that though, this whole midlife thing. I think because we're all in this, well, except Chris. Um, he's still like a child. I muted him. Oh no. I was like, I thought it was my computer. I was like, oh no. I knew I saw the sign come up. I was like, you little. Um I do want to say though, like we you spend so much time building something that you believe in, right? And that and it's not like you it can't change or adapt or evolve at all. But I had somebody say, Oh, that was a very Haberman concert. And I'm like, at first I was really pissed. I'm like, this is not cliche. Like, I spent a ton of time thinking about not only the repertoire we're gonna play, but how it influences the audience and the order and building almost an event in the situation more than just playing at people, right? Try to um get them to listen. And and so for a while I was pissed, and then I was like, actually, thanks. That's good to know that you notice that like uh that that I'm doing that. But now I I it doesn't feel stale, but uh you're right. Like, how do I continue because this is the thing I built, you know what I mean? Like how do you how do you get through that?

SPEAKER_01 42:02

What what do you do about that? Um, I I'm continuously experimenting um with things, and so you talked about concerts. So all these projects, right? That we just I just referenced, that's a big part of that. Of like, let's just let's take a take a risk and see what happens. Um, and I I owe a lot of my uh willingness to take a risk because I'm not a gambler. I do not like I don't have a problem with people who do it. I just I know it's not for me. As I always say, like, I've got enough vices, I don't need to add more, you know. So um I gambled once when I was out just out of college and it was a bachelor party in in New Orleans, and it's like, let's all go to the casino, and I lost $10 in five minutes, and I was like, this is stupid, I'm leaving. And I left the whole party and said, I'll be down the street, meet me there, you know. So, but um, I was doing my doctoral chamber conducting recital uh at the University of Texas, and uh I had a rehearsal footage and I showed it, you know, to to Jerry and he was watching it, and he's like, uh yeah, Tony, you are running 65 miles an hour. He's like, I can barely even understand what you're saying. And I was like, I know, I'm just trying to get all this stuff done, and I've got one hour to put all these pieces together and the DivorJock Serenade and Stravinsky uh ebony concerto, and you know, and I'm like, I'm just freaking out to get all this stuff together. And and this little piece Copeland wrote, fanfare for the common man, and I'm like, you know, poop in my pants about it. And he goes, okay. He goes, just take a deep breath. They want to do well, you want to do well. I was like, great. So he wasn't at the performance, he wasn't at the recital. I videoed it. He watches the recital, you know, conducting footage, and he goes, and he's watching it, and he's like, he looks at me, he's like, I'm like, what's going on? He goes, This is a completely different person than I saw two weeks ago. What happened? What what is this? And I'm like, is it good? He's like, Yes. Where where did this come from? And I said, Well, I just kind of decided you're probably going to give it a passing grade no matter what, unless it's an absolute failure. So I might as well just be in the moment and try to like just enjoy the moment that I get to work with these incredible, you know, musicians. So I just decided to risk it and go for it. And he was like, huh. He goes, you know, all of the things that were the most rewarding in my life were all the biggest risks that I ever took. And so that has stuck with me forever. Like take, take risks, uh, you know, calculate them as much as possible. Try to set them up. Don't just, you know, run around, you know, shooting from the hip. But I think that's what it all comes down to. And so like uh we did a Dvorjak Serenade performance last year. I called Divor Jacques Decoded and I invited the audience onto the stage to to interact with the musicians. And then I talked through parts of the piece and I I approached it of back to Steve Cohen. The only wind ensemble concert I ever saw him go to at LSU was when the Dvorjak Serenade was there. And he lived in New Orleans and commuted to Baton Rouge, right? So that's that's a hefty little drive because he was the principal clarinetison Louisiana Philharmonic Orchestra. And I was like, Mr. Cullin, what are you doing here on a Thursday night, you know, Wednesday night? You you got, you know, you're going to teach in the morning. And he goes, if you play the Dvorjak Serenade, I'll show up. And I and that stuck with me forever. And it was this thing at that moment of you know my young life, young career just starting of, okay, I I I see that this piece is really important. I see people talk about it. I hear it and I'm like, okay, but why? What is it about this piece that makes it that? So I I ended up doing some research on it in my doctoral project and kind of did like a TED talk on the piece. Like why does everybody think this piece is so amazing? And so brought out some themes and talked about, you know, what is Checkness and there's a musicologist. So I tried to like I always think of like how would I talk about something I'm really excited about that I've done all this really intricate work on and say it in a way that a family member who doesn't know music you know would still be interested. You know, how can I how can I sit talk about the thing that I love in a way that makes sense you know and is captivating. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:15

Peter's done that same thing for a piece called Fun Tango. It's fascinating. He brings people on stage it's it's interesting. Peter? Unfun.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

I actually also oh go ahead no no I actually also made the audience meditate this February before a piece. So I led them through a breathing exercise. It was and literally I decided to do it as I was walking on the stage and the students it was before Jennifer Higdon's Mysterium. And I I told the audience I was like you're going to hear these just kind of two oscillating chords but it's not predictable. It keeps changing value. And I said so I always feel like the opening of this piece is like your weight you're bobbing in water you know and then you'll you'll get to the moment of like what I feel like is like reaching you know the height of meditation. And so I said so can I just ask you to close your eyes and breathe deeply with me. And we all like had the audience breathe together and I said and I I used I there's an author I like uh his name is Mark Brackett. He's at Yale uh does is the leader of the Center for Emotional Intelligence and his whole thing is about feeling and that's been a thing that I've been into and so like use some of his language about how are you feeling and all that stuff. And then the piece opens with like either wine glasses but we change it to handbells with dowels. And so like as I walked away you get this like growing through the hall and then we started playing the piece. And I was really proud of it. And it was a total risk I took in the moment. However the students did say after the concert they were like could you just let us know you're gonna do that because we sat there for four minutes. You know I was like that's fair. That's fair.

SPEAKER_03 47:55

I'll take that one you know and now a message from our sponsors. Concert night you've studied your scores you've thoughtfully chosen your baton and outfit the value of the instruments on stage is nearly priceless. You represent the composer the musicians and your institution behind you in the audience are your peers, proud family members, community and even potential donors.

SPEAKER_05 48:17

And my question is this are you standing on a squeaky, mass-produced podium that was bought long before you arrived? I know I've stood on that podium. A conductor's foundation should match their artistry.

SPEAKER_04 48:31

Well I can tell you I'm not on that podium because I have two of these silent stage podiums which are gracefully designed to complement the instruments but not distract from the music. They're built with American oak, elegant brass railings, sound dampening rubber backed carpet and velvet red, and steps on both sides which fold in easily for a smaller footprint when needed. Each podium is delivered in a street rolling case for the podium to survive backstage bumps, dust or even like we take these long ensemble tours.

SPEAKER_05 48:59

Commuter, elevate your presence with silent stage podium. Say it with me Silent Stage Podiums. Find out more at SilentStagePodiums.com now back to our show.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

Tony uh if you had to go back and um uh ask yourself uh uh in your first part of your teaching career here's uh something you should here's some advice to you as a first or second year teacher what would that advice be?

SPEAKER_01 49:25

That's a great question and you've asked that one I listen to a lot of your podcasts including I just listened to Alicia Neals this morning. Yeah you're getting that question too. Yeah uh that's a great one so and I even heard that this morning it was like I better be ready for this and sure enough I'm not um it's all gonna be it's it's all gonna be fine. You know just trust the process, keep doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 49:48

Don't you think that's the it thing though too like well I don't I I would I haven't read that book by Adam Grant but I mean that resiliency, the reflection the intentionality but also there's got to be like this philosoph I mean that's one of the reasons why I love teaching teachers or why I left teaching in the public school was I saw all these teachers get jobs that were student teachers with us, but the best ones weren't maybe the best musician or didn't come in with the most leadership skills but man they grew and they they were in the same room I was in and they had the grit and the reflection and and you can teach those skills those are the things you can teach to make a a teacher not only better but um love that creative outlet of being the artist I mean the art of the craft of teaching is that exact thing. And I I just think that's that it I wanted to get to that from earlier too and um there's there's no question here.

SPEAKER_03 50:43

Don't want to like those those experiences so here let me let me follow up with a question.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Now we talked about the students that have the it factor the success factor I'll just myself what about your students who are struggling what do you do with them man um I always find well okay so I'm gonna tell a story uh another author I've really enjoyed was Carolyn Fleck uh from Stanford and she wrote on validation and I realized how much that had meant to me throughout my career. So uh you know sweet Jimmy Hobbs uh referenced going to my first conducting workshop and literally like saying I never want to go to this again. I this I I'm embarrassed I am not on the level um and it was actually Albert Wynne who's currently at the University of Memphis was a doctoral student at the time and as I'm like kind of like trying to hide my dejection and fake a smile uh on the last days we're like kind of checking out and everybody's saying bye and leaving he just says hey did a good job this week should keep doing this keep keep keep working at it and I re I've told him if not for that moment I would have never stepped foot in one of those ever again. So it's it's so I think there's sometimes not really talking about struggling students. I don't know that he knew I was struggling maybe he did. He's such an insightful human he's just like can really he's the kind of person that just sees right into your soul you know um but I think anytime you're dealing with a student who's struggling uh you do your best to pull pull them aside you know and just say what's what's going on you know talk to me you know and sometimes it's something very commonplace um and it's all and just I think sometimes students like hearing yeah that's totally normal. Like don't get me wrong it sucks but you're not you're special but not in this room I always like to say that you're special but not about this. Like this is this is very common. It sucks let's help you get through it kind of thing. Self-doubt, imposter syndrome, all those things that students talk about uh my favorite is always I'm sure you've all heard it every year it's usually like sophomore um students who go I swear I'm practicing more efficiently and more time than I ever have and I'm actively getting worse at my instrument. And I say this every we hear this all the time yeah every year you hear it and the answer is I'm sure you know it's like no that stuff was all there. You're just hearing it now. Yeah your ears are growing faster than your technique absolutely exactly and I was like your taste is growing this is really good you know and um there's a great video very short uh by Ira Glass which by the way I'm sure you all can uh relate I'll always go so you know I always bring it up in my conducting class every year I'm like so I'm gonna show you this video by Ira Glass I'm sure you know who that is like this American life yeah and they're like you know and I'm like is he a TikTok man yeah I don't I I don't know that he is because I'm not on TikTok. So um but yeah it's this thing about how it took him seven years right to to figure out how to do this American life because no one had ever done that before. And he talks about the creative process and this thing of like you know your taste is what got you into it and your taste is really good. And that's I tell students that's where you are right now. Your taste is really developing but now you realize your skills aren't where you want them. So you know and he said it took me seven years to finally make this a figure out what the heck this thing was. Um and there was a great podcast that Alec Baldwin used to do and he brought him in and they listened to one of his early versions of what he was trying to do. And Ira Glass tears himself apart the entire time you know and is like I listen he's like listen to my voice I'm trying to be someone I'm not here. He goes I'm trying to I'm trying to be what I think I'm supposed to be which I'm sure is a lot of what we talk about with young conductors. Stop trying to be something else just be you it's Alicia talked about that you know so yeah I I I find so many connections in all these things to what we do.

SPEAKER_04 55:02

So I I want I want to share this I was having coffee God last weekend already with an art professor at Concordia and um he had brought in a guest uh artist and she said there's four legs to the table of being an artist the first one is show up right the second the second one was was was do the work so I mean these are odd but like show up do the work I believe that's this isn't these are paraphrased. The third one was tell your truth right Ira wasn't telling his truth he was trying to say be something he wasn't right tell your truth that just blew me away it's so simple. And then the last one was what we were talking about earlier is this idea of be flexible let the art take you where it's going to go instead of trying to you know pigeonhole this idea or or be willing to change I just think so many people are like they found their formula or what they do and I just really found a lot of uh maybe because I'm not sabbatical but I found a lot of meaning in those four things for me as a conductor and repertoire and rehearsal.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

Yeah also like the pursuit of a question.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

No question there Bubbles there was no question there's no question just a thought the uh I talked about what was I have a confession first leg first no okay sorry I have a commuter confession and I I debated whether or not to even share this so the first few episodes I was like I'm not sure how I feel about the all the sound effects and thank you thank you now that being said I've now grown to look forward to them so however there was one it was one of your recent episodes I think it was with uh your orchestra colleague uh one of your orchestra colleagues who's retiring yes and there was like crunching chips like someone eating chips or something that one all I was wearing airpods I I like took them out of my that one in particular I have a couple of weird I also don't like on TV whenever like you know they enhance certain sounds in movies and TV whenever someone is pouring a drink that sound drives me insane and so like every beer commercial ever done where you hear like you know the pouring sound it I it makes my skin cross for Tony I reason.

SPEAKER_04 57:27

You know what Chris has just added in to this podcast at these moments. I'm just telling you and I will also tell you I hated the sound effects and then I would my wife would listen to I'd watch somebody listen and they'd laugh. And then I think Chris has also gotten better at well not being efficient with them but just but they're in the right time in a good comedic effect. Wait timing you mean like right now and now yes and have a butt let's throw more now right now.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Yeah that's what's going to I feel like you need you're missing a marketing opportunity and that you need to have a young artless branded soundboard that people can download.

SPEAKER_04 58:06

Another thing maybe for like 99 cents. He's gonna spend more money on that and we're gonna lose more money. Do you know how many t-shirts we have boxes of t-shirts.

SPEAKER_05 58:14

Not some money anymore but there's some money makers this is true.

SPEAKER_04 58:19

We could make it that's not what Chris is good at. He's good at being unbelievably creative but not good spending money spend money like no one's business. He's good at that really good okay so um uh we've been talking about podcasts Hourglass other things like that and you and I were talking earlier and I I really want I want to hear about this because we didn't get a chance to talk about it but I'm a huge podcast listener too right Happiness Lab we just talked about Adam Grant I love rethinking and work life um I love lots of psychology lots of science I try to do podcasts as not music except for this thing that I'm doing. But um you were talking about that and then also how that's moved into the psychology of an ensemble and leadership and community and I would love to learn from you if you would just talk away.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

Oh well I don't know if you're gonna learn from me you're just gonna hear me like I I always say I just think out loud a lot. And so I I talk with Chris a lot so this is pretty normal. Well and I like doing it because I like getting people's reactions verbal and nonverbal right and when you get like a yeah you know that's like okay I'm on to something you know um uh yeah I I just I I interviewed for a a fellowship position here at ISU for next year and I just got informed it's but I I'm gonna be a provost fellow for the university next year. And so I spend thank you they take a quarter of you know my teaching load off and I um I go just work in the provost office for eight, nine hours a week. And but you have to have a project. And so my project was I've been doing a lot of work on building a sense of community within the ensemble because there are things that I feel like I used to take for granted that were more likely to happen on their own that are not happening now. And and I think there's a lot of reasons for that that I'm not even going to get into uh but it's we have to address it. And so I've done a lot of work there. Um and I said I'd like to see if I could examine are some of these things possible for our faculty. You know um we don't even as a faculty have as much time as we used to a few years ago just to be social. You know and so it's it's odd that the the the occasional hallway chat is just less prevalent. And when I have one, I had one a week or two ago with my colleague David Collier and it was like we both left like he wrote me an email thanks that you know that it was just great to talk to you for 15 20 minutes. And I was like yeah we used to do this all the time you know like what's happen what's happened to us you know so um so I I told the provost like here's my idea and I'm not sure how to fix it. So I'm gonna go at it like I do as an artist and I've got some ideas and we're gonna try it. And I said I can't give you deliverables I can't give you promised results but here's what I'm gonna try and see what and it might even go a different direction right and when I was telling her this when I set up the the issue right she just gave this big nod and I'm like okay I'm on the right track. You see it you know we all see it too. So we started this year with a retreat for the Wind Symphony and I said I want you all to learn how to work together better. And um I want I, you know the common thing we always say is in our profession a lot of people say is if I've done my job really well, if I get hit by a bus and can't be at the concert the thing will still happen as if I wasn't there. Right. And again back to I just finished Lauren Michael's biography and he's just one of my heroes because he says if the show goes off really well I've left no fingerprints on it. You know and so I I always kind of think of that of like I'm trying to make this not as as little about me as possible um even though I'm up front you know um so all that to say we started our first concert cycle was a Prism concert except all the ensembles were like instrument ensembles. So you know clarinet choir flute choir etc etc etc all from the group um and I said you've got to pick your rep you got to do da da da all that stuff you've got to rehearse and so the first that that retreat laid out what I I said I am for this year determining what I believe our five core values are right and and one of them was community right community respect accountability excellence um and I said that's this is gonna be our guiding light for the for the semester and year but particularly this first concert because you need to work independently um and so their first coaching was from myself and my grad students went around and we said we're gonna come to your first coaching and we're not gonna coach you musically we're gonna watch you work and then say okay pause you know at some point and go let's talk about that interaction what happened there you know uh did you talk over this person did you give this person a chance to be heard and give their idea you know those sorts of things um and it made the students totally bought in so much so that like one of the sections was like we're gonna have a section lunch we've never done that before you know and it's like great because if I said you guys should just hang out at some point socially it'd be like no I'm not doing that because you told me to but when they thought of it it was a great idea you know so yeah so that's that's been a big part of like you know supporting each other holding each other accountable myself included you know and you know I I had a a rough yeah I had a lot going on this last few weeks and one of my students came up to me and said are you doing okay and I said beautiful I I don't know and I said I hadn't thought about it until you asked you know and he and and it was kind of like wow I don't think I've ever had a student ask me if I'm okay you know um and then what what what are you using as um like motivation or readings or books? What have you been digging into to do this out so in in that we use the core principles of the Orpheus Chamber ensemble. Oh sure yeah and and so one of the big tenets of that is put the work in the people of the hand in the hands of the people doing the work right and so I've we after every concert we one of my graduate students is currently serving in the army uh he's an army reserve uh uh soldier uh musician army reserve musician and he said hey can I do this thing after I conduct it's called an AAR after action review you know and I was like course military guys got to have a you know initials for everything yeah it's got it and literally it is uh tell me all the things I need to you know tell me things to improve then when those are done we stop great what are all the sustains what what should I keep doing right yeah not get rid of in those meetings we kept you know morphing even stuff as simple as like when I make rehearsal notes like so this is a great change that I'm still figuring out um I would always make recordings give them to them make them do an assignment here's how we sound right now concerts in two and a half weeks what do we need to work on right read those comments and then I would go in and make a thousand sticky notes in my score and I'm gonna here's all the things I got to address. And I would come in you know like on extra coffee that day and like laser in and just you know yeah and it was like I mean rapid fire. And students would come out of it after like an hour rehearsal like that and they'd be like whoa, whoa like that was great. We got so much done but whoa that was intense. And now I'm starting where I they still do the same thing, but then I'll write rehearsal notes uh print them out in you know in excel and then give them to the students and say I want you to put these in your parts and so like one of the things we've talked about is like can we they this is like students are helping me they're like can we get those earlier and then can we get some time for us to just work on those as a section and I'm like great so that's kind of like next year's you know it's this evil evolutionary process of the whole thing. But so yeah Orpheus Chamber Ensemble, a lot of Adam Grant's writing, uh Mark Brackett, uh how to uh dealing with feeling and um uh what was the first one? Uh he talks about being an emotion scientist and and the way he talks about emotions and feelings was revolutionary for me. Um it's I high I he actually writes curriculums that people use in schools and I'm sitting here going everybody should be doing everybody in education should be talking about this. And it's just comes to the idea of like we all we all talk about emotions as like we get scared and he's like we get scared because we just don't have language about it. And so he's even got this emotion chart that's really helpful. It's I have a more work to do there, but like he's one of my like you know who do you want to have dinner with like Mark Brackett, Adam Grant, you know, Caroline Fleck um and then uh other podcasts that I like that I find inspiration from um I really like Dak Shepherd's podcast when he has experts in another field because he knows just enough to be dangerous, right? He can hang a little bit. I really enjoy uh you know the inspiration for this podcast of Art uh Smartless. Um obviously got to give a shout out Sean Hayes Red Bird you know that's right yeah uh but he I love how they talk about their careers and process. Um I also like Soul Boom by Rain Wilson and a specific episode. I am a big fan of late bloomers um and so uh the actor oh shoot who's the guy breaking bad um oh Cranston Brian Cranston his podcast they do this acting exercise to start and it was like man this is this is what it's like to talk about being a conductor when you take this little bit of text and then you internalize it and they each give three lines of text and then after they compare and contrast and they're like oh well see for me the main character was had this going on in the background and so he was feeling this and it was like oh that's I I I didn't think of it that way and it changed the way the the words were paced when I said them and it's it was fascinating. And so I I'm really inspired as and from the conducting standpoint of like how actors you know assistation and yeah yeah yeah yeah and like create this whole backstory and personalize it right um and the late bloomer thing I'm really into because I I consider myself a late bloomer. Didn't start my grad my doctorate till I was 35 years old. One time gave a presentation at um uh Chip DeStefano's band conference that he does every year and I started with saying I've always prided myself on I've never felt like I was the most talented in the room but I did feel like I was the hardest worker in the room and that eventually I would get there. And and um I a lot of that came from Jerry. Jerry said to me said to a at a conducting workshop years ago he said I truly believe that in most cases people are as good as they want to be and I and at first I was like wow that's a really mean thing to say right like you just don't want it enough or whatever. But later as I thought about it I was like how validating and encouraging is that like okay I just feel like I got my butt handed to me for a whole week but there's still time I can still do it you know and so then it became this thing of like okay I want it I'm gonna put in the work you know um so yeah I think we can all relate to that it was funny when I said that about like I consider myself one of the hardest workers in most rooms Chip DeStefano said he stood up and was like not a harder worker than me you know and I was like I realize that's a triggering thing to say in a room full of band directors. I think I'm the hardest working here. What you want to fight?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:25

You know that's really well that that's really true. I I that's great. I love it.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:31

Yeah that's thank you that this could be the longest show notes ever like the number of books that you have like listed off and podcast it's unbelievable you are well read sir.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:43

My goodness I I came to reading later in life I've just started reading a whole lot more hasn't started yet so I mean like there letters make sounds the little sounds make a word words make sentences it's tough.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:59

If the book is sort of looks like long tones I'd do a lot better.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:02

Oh there you go a few words on a page. What's that David Spade thing from Tommy Boy? It's like it's called a book group of words make a sentence group of sentence make a paragraph start in the top left go to the bottom right you know I checked it out I'll check it out I'll check it out. I'll check it out yeah a lot of people go to school for seven years. Yeah it's called doctors we are all of an age aren't we I love it yes I love it I enjoy getting to make these references and y'all get them because I make all these references on the daily at work and students are like you know that's right.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:39

I have a uh speedrun going ready for a speed oh a speedrun there's a sound effect that goes in yep I put that in afterwards I delay a little bit because it takes a little time and that's why I pretend to get excited about it because I see how it's going in right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

Uh I got it okay I'm seeing I'm seeing how the stock it is made it's right on so we're we're an encumbery stop it is really uh the post production that is involved is very high level very easily done in a car in the car and not listen level um okay so here we go so it's it's made in a car and it's listened to in a car show we're we're still waiting we're all in cards who enjoys it we're staying waiting who really likes it and and uh both all of us have to answer one of these questions okay so um here we go Tony the one score you'd take to a desert island ooh uh I'm really bad with picking favorites if anything every honor band I do I ask you know hey ask me anything I'm sure you guys do the same yeah yeah yeah and they're all what's your favorite piece and I'm like that I said it honestly might I think part of it is I I believe most of us most musicians have some neurodivergency we all have varying levels of ADHD which is why we're able why we're able to hyperfocus and shut the whole world out. But so I have trouble picking favorites um right now I would probably say the hindom is symphony right now because it's high on my list for next year and so I was just spending time with it.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:26

Early morning rehearsal or late night concert?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

Early morning rehearsal.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:31

Right now it's just a right now thing favorite composer to conduct uh that's a great question. I don't know um I want to say Omar Thomas I really I mean I I know it's kind of you know it you know I love Omar as great all that but like everybody should conduct Omar you know his his forward still is I've done I've been doing it with honor bands now is just that piece is a I I feel like a hidden gem uh that works much harder than it seems to make it sound right oh baby oh grade three my left foot they called me baby I'm all excited no wait oh man the most the most here we go next one the most underrated instrument in the Wind Symphony oh the oboe best advice for a young conductor in five words or less I guess you kind of already did that didn't you? It'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:26

Yeah uh five words or less um be curious one piece of music every student should play before they graduate their undergraduate oh um honestly if you're if there's one for your instrument because there's they they exist for multiple instruments the Hinduma sonatas. A better food scene New Orleans or Austin? New Orleans like no that's an easy one.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:51

The ultimate Louisiana comfort food gumbo okay and now we all have to share what's your creative alias for today and why did you choose it so Tony's is Righteous Reggie. Why'd you choose that right Reggie Redbird ISU that's our mascot yeah ISU I was gonna see if Chris would catch it yep I knew it's not that smart uh Chris why 142 a.m is that when you went to bed last night this is the time I went to bed this morning after driving from Eau Claire How about you Bubbles? Okay why Bubbles uh well the bubbles uh Chris and I when we're in the Disney band had a theme song um and the theme song was called Bubbles was a cheerleader is that the one with you with the cheerleader fabulous piece of music uh insert uh sound clip here uh here it comes PTSD he had to take his headphones off I think I still remember the choreography I can't PTSD I love it you just can't even listen to it anymore come on stop stop but uh any Tony this has been great um oh same really have enjoyed the communication you've shared uh in emails before it's actually helped our program as we're pretty stupid and don't work too hard at this part and so it's been a real joy to uh get your feedback somebody I respect and um I'm really glad you find I don't weird value of this while exercising but that's great and um I just I know you have so much to run away from the podcast fast enough. Yeah he keeps trying keeps his feet up anyway so it just great for you to share your story with our other commuters and uh couldn't be weird people thank y'all for inviting me it's an honor to be here with y'all especially considering all the guests you've had who are like some of my heroes you know and um yeah absolutely fantastic I appreciate it it's been fun thanks Tony thanks Tony yeah you are you're amazing all right Peter there you go like that guy cameras uh I saw his performance at CBDNA a few years ago and it was a what are you doing Christopher it stops my camera from moving it doesn't seem to be working then because you get camera just stop oh my god I'm getting seasick um uh I saw his performance a few years ago it's just beautiful and he uh I remember they did uh American Guarnica and it was just a very powerful performance and you could see that intentionality that he has with his students and it's also so interesting to hear his path coming into conducting late and dentist of music and and uh you know Cincinnati conservatory for music ed you know that's like go to eastman for music ed am I right Phil? Anyway we all make decisions that's right and but I just I just love that about about his his path and I think that's one of the reasons why I find his sensitivities unique with his students and the connection that community really uh that he's focusing on that is interesting because I just I saw that from his students and him when they were on stage no it was fun to watch him work honest to goodness to see him in his environment and run that festival um and work with his students was really great. All right hey uh let's bring on the guest pigeon Pete come on on let's let's uh let's celebrate here we go recognize the smooth dulcet tones and voice of the oh oh please keep going the best written intros and outros all year band buzzler very funny well thought out well crafted nothing like what we would do it was just beautiful sad that it's all coming to an end uh uh but it was a joyous ride was and I did not know the last one at all no idea oh you're gonna love that piece yeah that's just good stuff that's good stuff okay Paul so what do you got going on now?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:50

I mean i i is this has the show ended your career I guess that's the question I want to just know has what's been the impact totally tanked it right okay you can't step out in public anymore people you know uh I I really had a blast doing it it was fun to curate it it was not easy though to think about um all the different people that are that might be listening to the show and offer just a little bit of nugget and not share too much of what I'm listening to all the time. So it was a lot of fun it was good thank you thought about his audience doing that you're a kind soul a busy soul and a kind soul. Well it was fun writing a few little jabs in there every now and then and figuring out what sort of free gifts you can give on a zero dollar budget and less than zero less less than zero even yeah yeah we're losing money every time Chris gets another great idea to make money I do have to oh I got some new stuff set for next year.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:50

Hey we do have another segment and uh and here's the thing Paul gets to play along with this one bamboozler bamboozler this one ripped right from the headlines that's right right from Facebook this was from the band director's page and I've seen this multiple times now and I'm curious to see what you what y'all think. It says quote through my own high school and college education and right into my years as a band director I've always been taught used and then taught to my students Macbeth's sound pyramid although I've always called it the pyramid of balance. However, I recently read some comments that some think the pyramid is an outdated concept along with an article although I don't remember the title and author that argues bands have become mid-range dominant where all the voices are combining into a muddy wash of elto and tenor sounds but the article I read suggests doing the opposite which is to add more upper register to the overall band sound. So here are my questions. One, do we still adhere to the sound pyramid uh or pyramid of balance um or number and number two, do you have an opinion on the thought that band should become mid-range dominant or even upper range dominant? How?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:07

Phil doesn't have any of these thoughts Phil doesn't have any of these thoughts let's just start there my God can't you just can't you just say something like make it sound good and that ain't it do it again again.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:22

I mean do you want me I I'll give my opinion first I think the pyramid of sound is important when you're in a band that's not orchestrated well right I get the I get the opportunity to to have the amount of low instruments I want in the room and so if we all play piano right that you get more of that pyramid because just a lot of people only have atuba player and one bass clarinet but they've got nine flutes and eighteen alto saxophones. So I think the pyramid of sound is valid if you don't have great instrumentation in your room which most of us don't have perfect instrumentation. And I think it's worth um getting people to listen down to the lower sounds definitely especially in the way in the way that most chords are being voiced and orchestrated these days. So I do think there's value. I do think it's the mid sounds that uh are the real um muscle of a group it's the trombones it's it's this and and done well right it's the trombones, tender saxons, bassoons, that type of sound that really fills in the sound of the of the band um more than the low sounds um that's all I can really say about that is I think a lot of bands if they really want to sound fuller they should they should get more middle in that group once there's enough bass sound in the room. So that's my thought about that I don't think we need more high sounds there's already too many trumpets high clarinets and flutes playing loudly and most of the time they need to be listening to the lower voices and anybody besides themselves. Even in the middle school festival I was just at I was like clarinets you're you actually play really well and now we're gonna get you to you know well that's what it sounds like when I play that high. Well that's right but now you get to control that sound and um choose that. So uh those are some basic thoughts I have about that. And I will also say if you do that all the time everything will sound like a big brown band. I do think I do think that's my pyramid and then here's here's here's where what I think we should be shooting for a flight or pyramid.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:28

So this is an audio podcast Phil do you want to help you? Can you well in in my band I I have um let's say 60 players but 40 of them play low instruments have a an extraordinarily low heavy band. And so that's kind of like what my band looks like at times.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:48

And it's uh um he had a very squat triangle that was about five inches wide and a half inch tall. That's what he's saying. Yes that's that's my my band pyramid. The other thing is like I know people are like well what does your band sound like and I I don't really like that. I mean I'll answer it but what um I'm trying to be authentic to the composer and if the composer's written something that sounds one way I'd I want Hovanus to sound different than Husa and I want Husa to sound different than Mackie and I want that to sound different than you know Martin Lawrence and so I'm really trying to not let the instrumentation drive the sound of the group as much as the composer. So sometimes it's going to be brighter sounds and sometimes it's gonna be lower. I don't know but that's kind of a first world problem conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:35

Yeah I think sometimes those little rules and things that come out are a reaction to what's been going on and and I I think that there's probably evidence that that is a reaction to how bright bands are playing how top heavy they were dominated and just a way to kind of write that ship and make it all work out. But I don't think it's something that can be applied to every single piece and if anything nowadays the way composers are writing transparency of the melody I think is really important making way for that to come through and to be heard without modifying everything or making it all perfectly balanced.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:13

Whoa that was well said and way shorter than what I did nice work. Yeah it's kind of articulate actually I mean I'm just saying like I'm glad we should just switch them around and cut mine out and just put Paul and just put that yeah okay do you want to follow that then Peter all I did was draw draw pictures so I'm not really sure that uh yeah and then didn't and then you talked about it twice but didn't tell anybody what the picture was on the right. So that's functional. Yeah um I do like the band what do we call those boozlers?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:40

I do think that is a a very very very strong point to the show because they are real and they let people walk away with something um that they can use or think about right away. Or just or just something something you get to walk away with something something after all something I mean okay I unintentionally besmirched the whole podcast this is did not mean to sully your good names it was so that was your truth right there that was that was the truth right there.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:17

Oh my God tell your truth away with something Beyond Artless is sponsored by Beyond the Notes Music Festival.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:27

Our mission is to create and provide profound learning and social experiences through music that go beyond the notes visit BTN musicfestival dot com to learn more