beyond ArtLess
“Beyond ArtLess" with Chris Gleason, Peter Haberman & Phil Ostrander is a podcast that explores the friendships and the community that exists in and outside of the arts and arts education. In each episode of Beyond ArtLess, one of the hosts reveals his mystery guest to the other two. What comes next is a fun-filled conversation revealing the joy of friendship and the artlessness of the hosts. Unlike most successful classrooms, this show is not well planned and probably not worth your time.
beyond ArtLess
Jennifer Hawkinson
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What do you get when you put Chris, Phil, Peter, and Dr. Jennifer Hawkinson in the same room? A conversation full of laughter, honest stories, teaching wisdom, and at least a few moments where you'll find yourself thinking, "Yep... that's exactly what it's like to be a music teacher."
In this episode of Beyond Artless, we're joined by Dr. Jennifer Hawkinson, Associate Professor of Music Education and Director of the Symphonic Band at Concordia College. Jennifer has spent her career shaping musicians and mentoring future educators, but what makes this conversation so special isn't just her résumé—it's her ability to blend excellence with humility, high expectations with genuine kindness, and just enough humor to remind us that no rehearsal is ever completely under control.
From her years teaching in South Dakota public schools to preparing tomorrow's band directors at Concordia, Jennifer shares stories that are equal parts inspiring and wonderfully relatable. She reminds us that the best teachers don't have all the answers—they simply keep showing up, keep learning, and occasionally laugh at the chaos along the way.
What you'll hear in this episode:
- How Jennifer's journey led her from the school band room to the college classroom
- The mentors who shaped her—and why every great teacher stands on someone else's shoulders
- What future music educators really need to know before their first day on the podium
- Building rehearsal environments where students feel challenged, valued, and empowered
- Why relationships will always outlast repertoire
- The little moments that remind us why we chose this profession in the first place
Of course, it wouldn't be Beyond Artless without a healthy dose of laughter. Chris, Phil, and Peter swap stories with Jennifer about the wonderfully unpredictable life of music educators—those rehearsals that somehow survive flattened trumpets, questionable rhythms, and the occasional "creative interpretation" of the conductor's instructions.
Whether you're a veteran teacher, a future music educator, or someone who simply appreciates the people who make school music programs come alive, this episode feels like sitting around the table with friends who just happen to care deeply about making music—and making people better through it.
Jennifer's passion is contagious, her perspective is refreshing, and her heart for students shines through every story she tells.
Join us for a conversation filled with wisdom, warmth, a few laughs, and a reminder that while music may not solve every problem, it certainly makes the journey a whole lot better. That's what happens Beyond Artless.
SHOW CREDITS:
WALTON Coronation March, “Crown Imperial” - "The President's Own" United States Marine Band
Performed on April 2, 2023, at Northern Virginia Community College's Rachel M. Schlesinger Concert Hall and Arts Center in Alexandria, Va., as part of a concert titled "Sacred Hymns, Songs, and Sounds."
William Walton's Coronation March, “Crown Imperial”
transcribed by William Duthoit
Conducted by First Lieutenant Darren Lin
Program and notes: https://www.marineband.marines.mil/Po...
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Welcome back, computers, to the Beyond Artless podcast. We're kicking off season five with a great guest box. We're gonna talk music and teaching arts advocacy. We have plenty of laughs and just enough useful information to make this feel somewhat useful. Well, the Empire strikes a budget because apparently, even in a galaxy far, far away, someone still has to approve a purchase order. So turn up the volume, settle in, and get ready. Beyond Artless is back.
SPEAKER_05There you go. Does that look better? No. Five years in and we're just starting to figure it out. Now there's a little bit of a new buttons, though.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, look at that. There's a red box. Okay. This is exciting. This is good.
SPEAKER_05This is like a whole new box spot for people and chatting.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_03Maybe we'll build a bigger one. Is there like a little box that says poor content? That's your box. Oh, that's mine. That's right.
SPEAKER_05That's right. Okay. Sorry. Okay. Oh my gosh, boys, I can't even tell you how much I've missed you both. Not seeing you every week. Start with lies. Okay. I want to say the same thing. I do.
SPEAKER_04I want to say the same thing.
SPEAKER_05I won't, but I want to say the same thing.
SPEAKER_04Um, okay. So let's review everything you did this summer. Here we go. It's gonna be a four-hour podcast.
SPEAKER_03Well, Peter's Peter's summer lasted from like late December until now. Yes, that is exactly right.
SPEAKER_05It's been an eight-month summer, it's been beautiful. Good for you. Um I rewrote my conducting book. Uh went to Red Lodge in Montana. That was amazing as always. Taught on our grad program, a bunch of new people in the grad program this year, so that was fun. And um hanging out with my fam. It's been great. Relaxing. How about you, Philip? Uh you did a lot of playing.
SPEAKER_03You did a lot of playing. Uh I I worked more this summer than I have ever worked in a summer ever. Uh six weeks of Broadway, two weeks of teaching at Shell Lake, um, and then uh just a little bit of recovery the last couple of weeks. Just sort of bring slowing it down, and then some. And then some. Uh Christopher, did you get those standards rewritten or where are you?
SPEAKER_04Standards are rewritten. They're under uh public review right now, public comment, and then uh hopefully get them finalized by I can make a public comment. You can. You can make a public comment just like this. Hey, and then we get to see I'm sure they're amazing. With and then we're gonna do it with art and design and dance. So it's not over. We're just gonna add some more art onto it. Yep, it's all good. Can't complain. It's been a good summer.
SPEAKER_03Are your well-being are your committees for art uh and design and dance? Are they uh do you have some uh a committee set up yet? Where are you?
SPEAKER_04Not yet, because that's it's that's open for review, meaning that folks can go and and uh write comments. If we should review them, they may not be re you know, might not go up for free write, but we'll see. We'll see what happens. But um, yeah, the world of DPI is just fine. Thank you. Thanks for asking. I know you were concerned.
SPEAKER_03You are I was up nights one time back back in late May, with just one night. You're thinking about it. And and it wasn't about DPI, it was just in general and no, I was just trying to remember what those uh initials stand for. I just dotsprint? Is that it?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, I should go back and listen to some of those podcasts. No, I'm excited. Season five. This it's gotta get better. It's gotta get better. Um and I'm I'm I'm optimistic. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03We've had a summer to reflect on the wrongs that we've done on the podcast world. And uh now we're gonna write right some of those wrongs and create some new wrongs.
SPEAKER_05You know what right would, dear lord, Hobberman take two. You know what would write a wrong if we had less banter. Ready? Here we go. We have a guest today. Our guest grew up in small town, South Dakota, where the world's largest just grain palace is, not Corn Palace, Grain Palace. Didn't know they had Green Palace.
SPEAKER_03It's an upgrade.
SPEAKER_05Town has eight hundred.
SPEAKER_03I feel like Peter's friends are only in sort of the Dakota region. I don't have friends.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, which is we have uh this this human had nine band directors in eight years of public school. Oh wow, one private teacher the whole time. One private teacher, right? And most people uh aren't as resilient through that, but she's amazing. And actually, one of the things she noticed even as a student was those that had that community-minded uh teaching really built a program that was far, you know, stronger. So there's lots of good uh teachers in there too. Uh has a former student who was a comedian and is very concerned that they're in the act because of this student. We'll leave it at that. This person took a trip to the Grand Canyon skydiving with their niece, the instructor, which would be awesome. Have you ever skydived? No, I didn't. I would not do that. You've done it twice, Phil? We gotta ask about that. Please don't tell my family. Just keep it keep it quiet. Was it this year that you did that? Or it's not anyway. Uh was skydiving with their niece. The instructor's name was Dakota, so that felt like a good sign. Everything was great. Landed, came home, walked in the door, tripped over a chair in the dark, broke her toe. Everyone thought she broke. Oh, hilarious.
SPEAKER_03Not supposed to laugh. Not supposed to laugh. That means that's great. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_05Uh, undergraduate at Mount Marty College, went off to do uh great teaching, adjunct flute instructor at the University of South Dakota, has taught elementary and adult students in the private studio, great musician and player, taught elementary general music and instrumental music for 18 years in the public schools, both small, rural, and large suburban settings as well. Masters from the University of Manitoba, PhD from the University of Minnesota, uh, was the program coordinator uh for undergraduate and graduate music education at the University of Central Arkansas for nine years, and now is my colleague. This is one and only Dr. Jennifer Hawkinson. Oh, we're starting big. Yeah, that's a good choice. That's a good choice.
SPEAKER_01Hey friends.
SPEAKER_05Hello.
SPEAKER_01Nice to see you all.
SPEAKER_05We're gonna actually have to like be better now. Just saying it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_01I've hung out with two of you at a time in different settings, but this is the first time with the whole trifecta together.
SPEAKER_04It doesn't help. It's better, it's a worse.
SPEAKER_05It's like an exponential error.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. It's like two of us are dumb. Three of us are really stupid. You put us all together, it just gets worse.
SPEAKER_05There's another story. Wait, I forgot to say which we don't obviously talk about, but um, Jen, do you want to tell them about your second marching band parade ever? Sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we had a homecoming parade in this small rural community, and I'm the only band director. So I went through with the junior high band, and then the high school band ends the parade, and we circle up around a big flag in the middle of Main Street downtown and do a pep rally afterward, right? For the game. So this is homecoming. I'm I'm going through with the junior high students. I go through with the high school students. Afterward, one of the trumpet players comes up to me and said, Yeah, my trumpet doesn't work, and shows me his trumpet, and the bell is just flattened. Everything in front of all the tubing is just flat. I'm like, what happened? He said, Well, I set my trumpet on the ground. That ran over. And it got run over by the science teacher.
SPEAKER_04The science teacher ran over the trumpet. I love it.
SPEAKER_01He had pulled backed into the parking spot and apparently accidentally put it in reverse when he got in, and he hopped the curb across the sidewalk and onto the grass. So it was sitting right next to our brand new set of tenors. So at least those were spared and they didn't turn into two things.
SPEAKER_04I mean, better a trumpet. I mean, yeah, really. That probably didn't matter with the sound either. But yeah, no, I get that. Middle school. That makes sense. Logical almost. Yeah. Gotta love that. Wow.
SPEAKER_01The things that happen.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01We were actually able to get it fixed, which was astounding.
SPEAKER_04It's amazing. I love it. Okay. Skydiving.
SPEAKER_01And then you torqued your toe at the Yeah, like I can, and this when you skydive the Grand Canyon, the drop zone's like 16,000 feet. So it's one of the taller jump zones in the U.S. So it was great. My dad was 82nd Airborne. So he talked all the time about how jumping out of a plane was like the biggest thrill ever. Um, and he would take jumps for guys who are afraid of heights. I don't know how you get into the 82nd airborne if you're afraid of heights. But anyway, um, people would pay him to wear their flight, their jacket, and jump out of the plane because they didn't look at their faces. They just checked their name on the thing and they checked it off the list. So we went and did this jump and it was great. And like super good, one of the best things I've ever done. But yeah, I walked into the laundry room in the dark when I got home and didn't realize that my husband had put a stool there. I just drilled straight into it, broke my toe. I was in a boot for like weeks. It was tore terrible. Everybody's like, oh my gosh. You know, everyone assumed that this happened on the skydive, but it didn't. So how did you skydive twice and your family doesn't know?
SPEAKER_03Uh they they do. They just don't like to be reminded of it. Um, but I was um the first time I don't I I want to say that I did it willingly, but I don't I think that might be a stretch. Um, I was with friends and sort of somewhere in between bullied and peer pressured into going. Uh and I made it. Uh I was strapped to a a guy named Gary with limited dental work. And uh we we jumped out of the plane and uh and and and survived. Uh and then the second time was uh with the Go ahead.
SPEAKER_05I so you thought I should do that again with Gary.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the second time was uh same set of people, but we all went willingly. And then that was the end. That was the that was the end of it. There uh I sometimes when you live in the in Kansas, there's you're looking for things to do. And so this is before children. This is before like, you know, you you yeah, yes. It was, it was, but I did not break anything. Uh that would have that's uh sad.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Well I didn't either technically. Not uh not on the trip. It was after I got home. So I can do the big things well.
SPEAKER_05Right, right. Yes, the little things.
SPEAKER_01And safely. The little things are a struggle, I guess.
SPEAKER_05It's better than the alternative, than flipping that around, right? Yeah, right. Otherwise, that's that's so good, right? Um, Peter's one of my favorite things about my new colleague.
SPEAKER_04What? Well, I was gonna say you're gonna kick us off season five with a really good question. Here we go. Here it is. Build it up. I don't really have a let's go, but this is you're gonna start strong. Start strong.
SPEAKER_05Okay, now I'm sweating. Hold on a second here.
SPEAKER_03It doesn't take much room to sweat. I'm stretching out.
SPEAKER_05I gotta stretch out now. I gotta get lean them at the side, a little bit of that.
SPEAKER_03Chris, get the timer going. Set the timer.
SPEAKER_05One of my favorite things about teaching with Dr. Hawkinson is that not only is she a phenomenal music educator and teacher of teachers, she's also a great band director. So my question is, Jen, with all your success in your time in the public schools, why did you leave teaching in the public schools to do what you do now?
SPEAKER_01When I was an undergrad, I thought I was gonna get my doctorate someday. I just knew I would. Right. I have no reason to think why I would, why I would even do that because now no one in my family had gone to college. So even as an undergrad, I knew I was gonna go and get a couple more degrees eventually. And after I'd taught for a while, I kind of decided that I needed, I really wanted to work on my conducting, just not only for myself, but so that I could help my students in their musicianship and be able to do more. And I wanted to be better for them. So I did my uh master's degree in conducting in Canada with Dale Wanus. Um, and I also studied a little bit with Fraser Link later during that time too. Um, he's actually the one who helped me get through the degree at the end because Dale had become sick and was not able to help me out through the recital part of that, which I did at home with players that I was playing with in the Dakota Wind Ensemble, which was super good. Um and so I did that while I was teaching. Like I would leave for six weeks and bandcamp is going on and um come back and we'd be in, we'd be in everyday bandcamp charting drill and doing all the things, and it was great. And at the point that, and I had been thinking about doing a doctorate for a long time, but I had a really great job, you know, the the the trifecta of things that you don't want to leave. You've got great students, you've got great administrative support, and the parents and families are like on your side, like totally. It was so beautiful. And I thought, man, why do I want to screw this up? Right. So I'm gonna why would I leave? And you and this was before you could get it. There's a few programs now where you can get a doctorate with a minimum amount of time on campus. Um, and I actually have a couple of friends who did that. Um, but I just thought, okay, it really was, I turned 40 and I went, if I'm ever gonna do this, I've got to do it now or just forget that I'm ever gonna do it. And um, that was kind of the impetus to do it. So I applied at the University of Minnesota. It was the only place I would be so mad at students if they did that and applied at one place, but it was close by and my husband didn't have to move, and we could make that work. So I did that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And you're good, that's really cool. And then um Central Arkansas just did it all. Did it all.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um undergraduate and music ed. I was the program coordinator for instrumental music ed and area head for music ed after my I had a colleague that had been there for longer um who hired me, and then she went on to new opportunities. And so at that point, then I kind of took those things over and was in charge of graduate music education also. So we had a that program was a combo of people who did it in person and some people who did it online.
SPEAKER_05And you're back on the box, you're conducting a Concordia now. Is that a welcomed thing or something that adds a lot to the table? Or both?
SPEAKER_01I um I love it. Um, and I probably love it more because I didn't do it for a really long time. I didn't even get called for gigs when I was in Arkansas because no one knew anything about me. I had no conducting responsibility. So if you're not sure if the person's can do the thing, you don't hire them to do the thing. Right. So um I was just starting to get some gigs doing a little bit of that at the end of my time there. Um, but that's probably why, and I tell the students at Concordia this all the time that I don't take our time together for granted at all because I'm so happy to be back doing it. It is, it does present a bunch of challenges. Um, you know, four concerts in a semester sometimes. And you've got to press fast to get all of that done. But um, that's the challenge in it that's exciting, right? Like the first concert, my first concert on campus, I had nine rehearsals to get that thing done. And as I'm telling students who are new in the ensemble, I'm like, hey, we're gonna put together five pieces of repertoire and like seven hymns, and we have nine rehearsals to do it. There's all the flip players, a first-year student in the front. And she just looked at me like, what? She said, after rehearsal that day, she says, that's more music than I ever played in a single concert in my life. I'm like, I know it's okay. We're gonna get it. I said, You got it. Welcome to college, it's gonna be fun. She's like, Oh my gosh. I said, I know you can do it. Don't worry, I got you. I'll make sure you're ready. You know, so it's I enjoy it a lot. And honestly, I love um working with the symphonic band students just because they come from all different parts of campus. Some of them are music majors, some of them are not. I find that to be really awesome as well.
SPEAKER_03Share that with Phil.
SPEAKER_04Um you you work with uh obviously and have worked with future music educators for quite some time. Uh here's my question, and that is when you look at music education today, what is one thing you think that we as a profession are still getting wrong? You know what I mean? Like what what's the thing that you wish you could change? And it could be could be Phil. I mean, that you could direct it directly at him, but in general, what do you think? I think besides Phil.
SPEAKER_01I think the biggest thing that we get wrong, and I say we as the profession writ large, that we got really hung up on how we should advocate for music education a long, long time ago. And we are still suffering from that now because we do not know how to do that well. And in teacher education, the teachers that we send out don't know how to do that well. Um, this summer, I'm reminded of that again. This summer, I was teaching our music psychology class, and we do we start out with just like how the brain processes information and all of the great the ways that music like lights it up and rewires it and all of this. And one of the students looked at me and said, So if this is all true, why wouldn't every parent want this for their kids? I said, I know, I know, right? And I said, but we got stuck in this thing a long time ago about we should should we advocate for music education on the for art's sake, or should we advocate because um brain studies show that the brains of musicians are wired differently? You know, we got kind of stuck in this whole this should it be the aesthetic? Should it be because there's some correlation with academic achievement? Um and I think we still don't know how to figure that out.
SPEAKER_04Well said. So it was about Phil. Phil.
SPEAKER_03Um so what the uh uh can you go a little further with that answer, just for me? Like what's one or two things you would give a uh a first year teacher heading out of the gate? Uh what's one or two ways you could tell them to say, you know, they've got the gig now, they've got a gig, it's in their hand, they're ready to go. What's one they one thing they can do when they're in this new community to sort of um ensure their program and the and the safety of their students and the and the uh safety of the program?
SPEAKER_01Do a good job first, right?
SPEAKER_05Wait, I gotta get a piece of paper. Chris, I'm gonna write stuff down this season. Do a good job.
SPEAKER_01I mean, if you're killing it and you're building great community, um that will naturally bring people to your your cause um immediately, right? Um and then also like using the language of you know, letting sharing some of these things with your students and their parents at concerts, right? We took we had a long conversation in that class this summer about how we could advocate for our programs. I'm like, parents sit at your concert for a long time before the show starts. Maybe you should have some things on a slideshow that they can read about the benefits of being in music, you know. Um there's a uh neuroscientist by the name of James Zull, who has written extensively these great books about how the brain works and what it means for learning. Um, the art of changing the brain is so good. Um, and he says there's two things that are that we know move the needle in reorganizing and rewiring the brain. Brain plasticity. Number one is practice, and number two is emotion. Gee, I wonder where we can get that, right? Every day. Every single day. And my master's teacher, um, Dale Wanis, had uh his doctorate was in educational psychology, actually. Um and he said something that I thought about, I think about still to this day. He said, you want to give students three things every day, and it's from Benjamin Bloom. It's the the modes of learning, right? Something to think about, something to do kinesthetically, and something to feel.
SPEAKER_07Yep.
SPEAKER_01All of that, and we but we're not very good at sharing it. We don't always have the right words to do that. Right. This is one of my projects now. Um after that class this summer, I'm really thinking about okay, I need to like write an article that can be in these the Journals, right, about this very thing and provide some resources that are really user-friendly and readable for people to read, take, disperse, and use to help advocate for their own program. I think we're getting to a spot where that's going to become even more necessary than ever for multiple reasons, right? Shrinking enrollments, school budgets being what they are, all of those things.
SPEAKER_07Yep.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_05Think, do feel smart. Tell me more about um music in the brain. I know this is part of, I mean, we just talked about this. Um, but I know you're using like this new textbook or whatever with everybody.
SPEAKER_07Oh.
SPEAKER_05Um the reason I I bring that up is also like uh I use the new olding rhythm book, right? Which is not the way we we were taught rhythm, but the way people actually how your brain learns rhythm and using that knowledge, how to reset your teaching strategies so that they fit the way our brains work. And anyway, we were sharing that conversation the other day and you had some great stuff. So since we're on the brain, let's let's get it out there for people.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Um, so this was one of those moments where I was like, whoa, okay, I don't know if this should I it was just kind of a fun coincidence that the books that Peter uses in his instrumental methods class are the same ones I was using in my instrumental methods class when I was teaching it in my last institution. Um and I was just actually having a conversation with one of my former students from there about David Newell's book and teaching rhythm that way because he's trying to do this. He's got a class where he's doing some remediation on rhythm with students this next year. And I'm like, oh yeah. I said, Do you remember the Newell thing? You totally need to do that. And he's like, Yeah, that's right. I forgot about that, right? And like, I tell you, it will be it will be amazing. Um we this book that I'm using in I teach this general uh secondary education methods course. Most of the students in there are music ed majors in the semester that I teach it, but um, it's called the visible, the illustrated guide to visible learning. It's by John Hattie and colleagues. Um, there's a researchy version of the book, and then there's a version of the book that is like it's illustrated and it's like easy to grasp. Um, and they basically did a meta-analysis of thousands and thousands of studies in education to find out what actually works and looked at the effect sizes of these things. So, effect size allows you to compare results from lots of different studies that use different statistical techniques and find out what is actually practically significant, meaning, does it actually work? And I am above all a pragmatist, right? Theory's great, but it's gotta work in the classroom where it's not anything that um, and that's just, you know, I taught for 18 years in K-12 school, so it's gotta work, right? Um, and so this book has been really interesting because there's a lot of things that we know work, but the effect sizes are too small to really matter. And so this is really drilling down on what are the things that we know about the difference like between practicing and over practicing, for example, having um moments to work on retrieval strategies, right? Um being able to move things in the brain from working memory to long-term memory. And how do we do that, right? But it's consistency and practice over time, right? Which is not something that none of our students are doing as much as we want them to, right? And figuring that out.
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SPEAKER_05That's GrandtoursINC.com. To learn more of other services, request an international tour design specifically for your ensemble. Can't get enough of me? Not sticking me yet. Come with your master's degree in music education with me at Concordia College in Moorhead, Minnesota. We offer a hybrid degree plan so you can keep teaching and getting paid and still have an in-person cohort in the summers to enrich your experience and learn a lot from others as well. Already have your masters. Music scholarships here are available for all students with an annual deadline for February 1st. Info about all these options and more can be found at concordiacollege.edu slash music. That's concordiacollege.edu slash music. Or just contact me, I'll take care of it.
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SPEAKER_03So now I have a meaningful question, I think. We'll find out in a second. Uh how do you get your average, you know, first year music student to make the leap from band is a fun activity to I want to teach music for real?
SPEAKER_01For me, I probably shouldn't be a music teacher. Like I've had nine teachers in my band program, and it everything was completely different all the time. And I started taking private lessons when I was in seventh grade, so my third year of band. Um so I think helping students to get good quickly, but that also means doing things like um maybe not requiring them to read notation while they're trying to learn how to play the instrument, right? Um coming from the south where and lots of places where literacy is a problem, and lots of places are working on how to help their kids read. Now we're gonna add reading music and in a different symbol language. And now they have to do all these things to make the sound at the same time. I really think it's more successful for them if we can just do the sound to symbol thing, which we know works, and we know from all the research works, but it's not the way that most of us learn. And so it's really, really hard to make that shift over. But if you can get a kid sounding pretty good right away and being successful and doing it in a way where you're scaffolding the tasks so they can really just have what David Newell would call the luxury and um Robert Duke would call them the luxury of learning one thing at a time, they can progress so much faster. But somewhere along the line, we our learning got a bad rap because we were worried they wouldn't learn how to read music, right? So I think the faster you can get them really learning and and feeling good about how they sound and feeding into that loop, that breeds more practice and gets them moving along. I've had students who were like, ah, you know, they put in a ton of practice time. Um, one of them who went to Concordia actually, and it took a long time for the tone to come. And I just kept saying, You're on the track, just keep going. Or like, oh, I know it doesn't sound like I want it to. I said, but it's going to. You're doing all the right things, just keep doing it. And then one day she came to her lesson and it was like the switch turned and it was beautiful. And I'm like, when did this happen? She said, Friday night at 8:30 p.m., you know, or some random whatever time. She knew the time. She said, I don't know. I do not know how this happened. I said, I do. This is all the time you've been working at this thing. And I told you it would be there and now it's there. And she went on to be a music teacher for a while, right? So I feel like you gotta make it fun first. That's what the research says on beginners. They don't care how good you are at your instrument, they just want to know that A, you can make it fun and B, you like them. That's all they care about. If you can do those two things with beginners, that really gets them hooked. And then as they get better, the better your musicianship is starts to matter.
SPEAKER_04Right. Most of my beginning flute players really worry about the shamanade. So I don't know if I hey, speaking of beginning flute players, let's talk about that for a moment. What are a few tips and tricks for those, you know, because flute is just it's hard, right? Every flutes are always a month or two behind. And anybody can buzz a trumpet. That just tests reality. So, like, so like what are some tips and ideas for those to help those folks with beginning flutes?
SPEAKER_01Most of the the the A number one thing that I see that is not helping is when the lip plate is sitting on the lip. It's just placement of the head joint. So if they have it where it's underneath the bottom lip and the back edge of the tone hole is where the lip and the chin meet, that's the right placement, right? Um, I think we get too worried about getting to the full instrument. And if we can get them making a sound on the head joint and getting an A, then we're good to go, right? Then you can play stupid games, cover the end, open it, you know, put your finger in like a slide whistle, all of those sorts of things. Um, but a lot of it is just, and looking in a mirror helps a ton too, right? So is your aperture lined up with the tone hole? A lot of times that's not quite right, or it's too rolled out or too old. And it's just a little bit of experimentation on the sweet spot. But if you've got it in the right place and they can do it in a mirror, and if you have someone who can do it well and model for them, that helps a ton, right? For sure. So if you're not a great flute player, that's fine. There's someone in your life, you've got a high school student who's got it figured out. Do take a video of that thing and have your students watch it and then imitate it in a mirror for sure. Um, my best flute tip is completely stupid. Would you like it?
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Okay, this is so dumb. Um, Patricia George had a session at Midwest one year and I went because I just like, okay, what are the flute tricks? I don't know. Her trick for kids with braces is like worth a million dollars. It's put masking tape on the tone hole on the lip plate under the tone hole on the bottom, and maybe two or three layers, it moves the head joint slightly away from their mouth because the the braces have moved the lip forward. So if you just put some masking tape on it and then you put it on, it will clear tone like nobody's business. I have never not had it work with a student. And kids who with braces, flute players tend to be like really, you know, they want to be really good at it, kind of thing. And the the braces kill them. Once they do this, they're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And then once they figure it out, you have to adjust it every time their braces get adjusted. But as they get used to doing it, they get really good at it. And so students are like, yeah, I had to sw switch my move my tapes around because my braces got adjusted on Thursday and I think I got it. Kind of thing. So yeah, that's it's stupid, but you go till it sounds good, and then you go one more and it's gonna sound terrible, and then you peel that last layer off, and that's where you stay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh, just to think. I mean, Peter, all he really had was a cup mute stuck in the bell, and just no idea. No idea.
SPEAKER_05I just thought that's what it sounded like. It's kind of stuffy. I have to share this great story about Jen. So she just started Concordia and we had our first um our third concert band was having their first concert in the fall. And um and they're they're playing, and I have students do most of the conducting, right? So I just hopped out in the audience for the rest of the concert because I was done. And there were lots of people on secondary instruments, music educators. So we had this bass player who was playing oboe. And I had said, you know, oboe might not be the best instruments to play. Playing oboe. Okay. Play oboe. And the first rehearsal was horrible. They just sounded like, ah, it was just like this shouting thing was going on. But I said, I we gotta we gotta switch you off oboe. It's not gonna work. And he practiced and practiced and practiced. Well, then I was like, Oh, you can stay on oboe. Well, then he stopped practicing because he could stay on oboe. And he slowly regressed back down the hill towards the concert. But the student conductor's like, are you gonna play that as a solo or do you want everybody to play? And he's like, I can play it as a solo. And he goes, if you play it as a solo, I'm gonna make you stand. And he was like, Okay. So of course they get to the concert. I'm sitting next to Jen, and he biffs it. I mean, it's like no notes are coming out. It's like random shouting, ah, things are coming out. It's horrible. The we get done, kid stands up, the whole band's just cheering for him. They just see the whole semester happen, right? Jen looks at me, she goes, What's going on, the oboe? So I tell her this story quickly, and she's like, sounds of learning, sounds of learning, and she just started clapping. I was like, that one is taught beginning instruments. So I loved it. It was my favorite moment. Yeah. And to this day, when I hear that, I'm like, oh my God, first uh Woodwin Methods oboe day. I'm like, oh my God, sounds of learning. And I go close all the doors because they leave them open just for me.
SPEAKER_01It's one of my favorite sounds because there's so much cognitive dissonance in there. They are learning a lot. Like on the theory that if you've got cognitive dissonance going on, you're learning the most. Yeah, I love it. It's great.
SPEAKER_05At the concert. Anyway, that's my favorite story. Sounds of learning. This that's my favorite gen time, just right there for the kids all the way through, right?
SPEAKER_03Doesn't matter. Peter, we've done a poor job here. Um, Jim, when um when did music ignite for you as a young person?
SPEAKER_01Probably there was there was music in my house, but I was really the only person who pursued an instrument. My mom played piano. Um, and I just really loved playing. Um, my dad, when I said I wanted to play the flute, he said, Well, you know everybody's gonna play the flute. I was the only person who played the flute. It was amazing. Um and I'm like, see, told you. Yeah, right. Um, and so I don't know, like somewhere in there, like I got, I remember um my mom and I, I would get a bunch, I got a bunch of solos from my teachers at school, and we would go to the piano and she'd play the piano parts and I'd play the flute parts, and we played in keys that we both were terrible at. And it was a lot of sounds of learning, and it was amazing and a lot of fun. Um, but I think um early, um, I think I must have got a pretty good start. And then I remember I got asked to play my solo, my fifth grade solo at the concert. And I was like, oh, I must be doing something right here, right? And then um flute players. Yeah, right. 100% such a flute player. Um, and then yeah, after I started lessons in seventh grade with a band director in the town next door, that's when it really took off because Jan was amazing. Jan Crohner, White Lake, South Dakota. And that's that's where that all took off. And she played in a in a local orchestra. Um, and when I was maybe a junior in high school, they had a need for a section player. And she asked if I'd be interested. And I said yes. And I played in that here in Symphony Orchestra for two years, and that really changed my musicianship a lot because I was playing with really players who were better than me, and we were playing classical music of all types, and it was just amazing.
SPEAKER_05Who were some other mentors? I mean, you mentioned Dale Lanas, of course, at Manitoba and others. Who are some other um no pun intended Mount Rushmore figures in your musical journey?
SPEAKER_01Um, boo boom. Uh, nice job. Uh, Terrell Dobbs, Terry Dobbs was my cooperating teacher back in the day, and she teaches at University of Wisconsin now. Um, and man, that was a trip. One of one of her teaching assignments was a country school outside of Yankton. Um, and so we we went out to Utica twice a week to teach at the country school, and we had a general music class with all the students in the same class, K through six, all together at the same time. It was amazing. And then the students in fifth and sixth grade who started band instruments would do their lessons right after that. And then they came into the big city to um in seventh grade. So we were doing that. She was teaching choir and we were teaching instrumental music lessons all over the school district, mostly in paper closets and just like it was bananas, but I loved it all for sure. But I also, so she was huge as a mentor for me. And then just the people in my like in the schools around me when I started teaching. Like I would just ask questions of everyone who'd taught longer than me. And they were so generous. There were just and just too many people to name, but everybody was just so generous and helpful, and it was amazing.
SPEAKER_05But I think that's a huge, like you said this earlier about uh, you know, do a good job, build community. Like those are the easy parts, but those are really hard. And um, as you know, uh the young teachers need somebody they can go talk to. And I just I feel everyone's so nervous to speak to somebody now, especially to admit that they're struggling with something, and it's a huge need. Uh so those are your mentors. You're a mentor for a hundred.
SPEAKER_03Wait, I gotta I gotta interrupt. I want to interrupt. Can I interrupt you, Peter? Is that okay? Yes. I just have to point out that my my very first instrumental music teacher was a woman flute teacher who lived two doors down, and she was amazing. I mean, this woman could play anything. And so she taught me trumbo. And that was my first teacher. And I the thing I wanted to point out really quickly, Peter, sorry, is that you seem to have a number of um really important female mentors, not not always men or always women, but it sounds like both. Um, and that was not the case for me. That teacher who was a woman was one of the last ones that I had in my upbringing. And it was not an even split, but it sounds like it has been more of an even split for you. And I was wondering if that is the case, one or two, if you wanted to comment it on it at all.
SPEAKER_01Um I was really no, I no, I was just very lucky that I had a lot of female role models around. Um, I remember I the other half, half of my student teaching was with Terry. Half of my teaching was my student teaching was with Merle Larson, and we were doing all junior high band um at Yankton Middle School. And he was amazing too. But I think, and my advisor, my college advisor said, I feel like you got to do some things that other people haven't had the opportunity to do. And I had a great relationship with him. Um, and he gave me chance, he gave me the opportunity to do lots and lots and lots of things. Like I was on the podium a lot. It was that was huge for me. Um, my first teaching job, the woman who taught elementary music, speaking of amazing women music teachers, uh, she started in that school district when I was born. And she had been teaching there that whole time. She met someone local, they got married, they had a family. I taught her kids. Um, and we worked together because she had to travel two days a week to the other elementary school that was in the next town over, right? So that's how I ended up teaching elementary general music two days a week, four classes of first grade and four classes of fifth grade every week. And it was amazing. And so I had like lots of really, really good support. Um, but um, because I'd had nine teachers, I didn't really realize. Early that like women music teachers were not common because I'd seen a lot of them, right? Um, and later on, other people pointed out to me, especially as I got into larger and larger programs, um, that that was rare. At the time I was at Sioux Falls, Washington, I was the only woman on staff in a public school in that system. So, you know, I do um have appreciated all of the mentors in my life, but it definitely helped having seeing some women who were doing that thing at a high level for sure.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for thanks for being willing to share that.
SPEAKER_05I appreciate it. Yeah. I'll I'll jump, I'll add on to that because uh one of her former students, who's also a former student from Concordia, mentioned the same thing when Jen returned. She's like, oh my gosh, like it was so powerful for me to realize that here was a woman band director. I just didn't know that that was unique. I just had this high-powered, amazing teacher in charge doing it, doing the thing. And it never dawned on me that other women never saw themselves in that role as being a band director, high school band director, whatever that is. And I think it's something we have wrong. And I think it's great. I don't even remember my oh, well, we're talking about this anyway. Um, you see teachers all the time. What advice would you give, not just about flute, but what advice to a young teacher that you see at Concordia or anywhere to help them?
SPEAKER_01Um ask all the questions all the time of the people around you who are doing the thing and doing it. Um, well, the music education community I find to be so generous in so many ways. Nobody's keeping the trade secrets for themselves. If they find something that's really great or awesome or works, they want to share that with other people, right? Um, and a lot of times they're happy to share that so that they can help you avoid something that they already went through, right? Um, the one thing that is inevitable that I think all young teachers need to realize is there are going to be days when it is just hard because it's just the nature of it. Um, we are working with humans, and humans are messy. And some days with them are gonna be amazing and pinnacle moments and easy and great, and some days are just gonna be challenging and difficult. My first week as a first year teacher, I had um 10 kids quit band at my first job because I was gonna make them play every day.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01For the whole period. For the whole class period.
SPEAKER_05Mine didn't quit, but they said every day Dan Lidberg would walk in and go, What are we doing today? And I was like, We're playing band.
SPEAKER_01I had that same question every day too. I hated it. Yeah. I found out later. Yeah, I found out later that the students were running around the school during band time, and I got hired for that job because they felt that I'd have the best classroom management. It wasn't about my musical skill. It was I would they thought I'd be the best at keeping the butts in the seats. Which okay, and it and that was hard. So, like, that's what I mean about the things that are gonna happen that are hard. Um, but if you're doing what's best, this is the advice I got from Terry a million years ago. When you make decisions that are best for students, you're always gonna do the right thing.
SPEAKER_05That's exactly right. Even if it's not the best thing for your band or your show, but it's the best thing for the students, you will you're on the right side of that gauge every time.
SPEAKER_07Yep, for sure.
SPEAKER_05Just don't let them put their trumpet down.
SPEAKER_04Don't set that trumpet down on the grass.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you have no idea how much grief that poor cop that poor child got about that forever. I was always like, hey man, where's your trumpet? Like, and all the kids in the band were doing it, you know, because that really is that's the power, right? My second job, we had a student not show up on time for the first before school band rehearsal for marching band. And at the end, I I had everybody come in. I'm like, thanks for doing it, and thanks for being here this morning. I really appreciate you, blah, blah, blah. You, this was amazing. It was great. I need you all to do me a favor. When you see him in the hallway today, the one kid who missed, I need you to say, Hey man, where were you this morning? We really missed you. Are you okay? Yeah, 45 minutes into the school day, he came down to the band room and he's like, that was you, wasn't it? I said, What are you talking about? Everybody is at is like concerned for my welfare this morning. I'm like, how? What makes you think it's me?
SPEAKER_05That's great.
SPEAKER_01He was never late again. It was awesome.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no. This is the power of the hawk. Oh, uh, fate, your favorite nickname, Jennifer Hawkinson, is Oh, my last institution.
SPEAKER_01Students had to correct themselves all the time because everybody called me Jayhawk. And they're like, sorry, Dr. Hawkinson.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. At Concordia, her email is the best ever. Jayhawk and one. Oh my god, Jayhawk and one. She's just like, I love it. It's like uh it's like a TV show name. Air Force One, Jayhawk and one. Yeah, she's Jayhawk and one. Oh that's good.
SPEAKER_04All right. Uh Christopher, any questions? I I don't, but uh I'm my question is for you. Have you come prepared for this first episode? Have you prepared a speed round? I have prepared a speedrun. Whoa.
SPEAKER_05Oh, tell me that's not. So I have, but we could do two. And the other thing, do we have like the band boozler or whatever where we get to ask or answer questions from band directors? Yes. Because if we had someone right in. I want I want Jen to stay for that. I think we should do that before Jen leaves. Jen's got all the time. I think that's great. That's great.
SPEAKER_04Anyway, okay, we actually got two letters. One one letter was can you please stop just stop the podcast? And then the other one was a band boozler. So we're gonna go with the second one.
SPEAKER_05You told people Kyle that first letter was rude and that I don't like it. Oh no. Okay, here we go. Just these these are quick. Um Okay. Corn Palace or Mount Rushmore?
SPEAKER_01Mount Rushmore.
SPEAKER_05Um, East or West River, which side of the Missouri River has the better scenery? These are all about South Dakota, by the way.
SPEAKER_01If you're born in East and raised in East River, you have to say East River, but I think the scenery is better in the in West River, though I do find the prairie to be beautiful.
SPEAKER_05Um, worse driving conditions. Blinding blizzard in the prairie or 80 mile an hour straight line winds in the summer?
SPEAKER_01Blizzard in the prairie, for sure.
SPEAKER_05Sturges rally, avoid the area completely or join in on the chaos.
SPEAKER_01Join in on the chaos.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I knew that was.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_05Um worst winter month in South Dakota, the January deep freeze or the March fake spring that ends with tons of snowstorms?
SPEAKER_01January deep freeze. At least in March, you know it's short-lived.
SPEAKER_05That's true, right? It's gonna melt. And then the last one is the bison or the ring-necked pheasant, which is your favorite state icon.
SPEAKER_01Ring-necked pheasant.
SPEAKER_05All right, Chris, what did you get? What do you got? Bamboozler. Bamboozler.
SPEAKER_04All right, it says here, uh, dear gentlemen, uh, and I use that term loosely, marching band camp has started, but school doesn't begin until after Labor Day. We're rehearsing several hours a day. The students are working hard and we're making great progress, but I'm already wondering if we're losing balance. Between marching band summer jobs, family vacations, other activities, sports, and just having time to be a kid, there's a lot of competing, uh there's a lot competing for our students' time. At the same time, we know that the more time we have together, the better the ensemble can become. How do you find the balance between building a successful high-level marching band program and allowing students to have a life outside of marching band? And at what point does the pursuit of excellence begin to come at a too high of a cost? And how do you know when you've crossed that line?
SPEAKER_05If it's excellent, it can be worth it. But if you're exhausted, imagine what the students are like, right? And so uh it's really hard, and especially because DCI and uh all the alums have really jacked up the competitive marching band scene to be something that's all encompassing. It's hard to have less time because if you're not starting to learn your show in June and July, you're not so I don't know if I have an answer. God knows if you look at my life, I'm not a shining example of balance. So I don't have much more than that, but make it excellent and try to be as efficient as you can. Jen?
SPEAKER_01Um I taught in a school district that had some really amazing marching bands. Um and I would always tell the students that I will do everything you want to do. So bands are starting to have night practices. Should we do that? I asked the students, they were like, no. Um and that giving them some voice certainly helped a hundred percent, right? But also getting them to buy into it's not about the hours you practice, it's about the quality of the practice time. And if we can make that really dialed in and productive, we can get done in less time um what we need to to really do well. Um, and so that was a big, that was a big shift, um, particularly at my last school, um, to help them to feel like they would get that done. And then, you know, just like making games out of like charting drill, because it is the most boring thing ever. Um, and I I say that as somebody, I'm like, the lot the by the time we got the last set on, I'm like, yes, now we can start working on the show. Now you know where you're going. Now we actually can get some things done. It's like we really can't do anything with music until you all have it memorized, right? Like we can do some things, but that's where it really accelerates. And so students were like, they knew the number of days that we charted, what the record was. Can we break the record this year? Can we come in under, right? So they were running the mathematical calculation. There were, I had a group once who would um count their dots in different languages. It sounds like like the UN out there. We've got Russian and Spanish and Chinese, and they're all learning, and some of them were going home and learning to count to 16 because that was pretty much the end. We didn't have very many of those. They just needed the first eight, right? They were learning one to eight in a new language so they could whip that out the next day at practice, you know? Like, so yeah, it is it's challenging for sure, especially when you're feeling that pressure.
SPEAKER_05I love giving the students voice, though. I think that's great. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Because they'll tell you what they want to.
SPEAKER_04Well, when I think balance, I think Phil, Phil, go ahead.
SPEAKER_03I am not an authority on this question. Um, I've said this about other bamboozlers uh that we've gotten in the past that someone who is asking this question is already aware of trying to create a balance of a proper balance for their students in in the regards that the question was pertaining to. Um it is the teacher that is unaware of what that balance is that is the problem. And um I don't know what the solution is to that particular problem, other than um uh just being aware of what your colleagues are doing around in your district, in your region, in your state, just trying to keep uh an eyeball on how many rehearsals people are having, how much time are they spending on what and the other? Ask your friends what they're doing. Ask your colleagues how much time are you spending doing this and and make sure you're in line with what they're doing. That is more important than any trophy.
SPEAKER_05But but I wanna I want to win. Well, it'd be your first time and play the trumpet. You good people, I miss you all. That's nice. Well, um, coldest performance, Chris. Was the coldest time you've ever played your tuba outside?
SPEAKER_04Oh, that was with the UW Screaming Eagles. Uh and uh brother Tim will remember this. Um, very, very cold, I think. But yeah, it was minus at least 15. It was ridiculous.
SPEAKER_03So Phillip? I marched in the snow once in high school. I remember that. But that's it.
SPEAKER_05You know, just the light flurry. University of Montana wasn't directing, I was uh working on the directing, but uh we started playing, and then about 15 seconds in everything froze. So we were just singing and and uh marching around, singing away. It was cold. Very cold. You jumped.
SPEAKER_01Multiple, multiple blizzards. Um pouring rain once at a gig uh at KU. We had driven. It was that was crazy. It turned out to be one of the best um events that we ever did because the KU folks were so kind and um helped us work out the thing where the parent buses couldn't leave because their drivers had to rest and that kind of thing. But um, in the first small town I taught in, they were gonna do a living nativity right after Thanksgiving to kick off the holiday season. Oh my god. With band outdoors in the city park with live animals. This was a living nativity, friends. Oh my god. Wow, yes.
SPEAKER_05Scaring the animals. I love this.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, we we had small groups who played some things, but you know, like instruments were freezing up after they played two notes, and it was just the way it was. But it was no.
SPEAKER_05Sorry. How many animals were scared when the wind instruments started playing for the city?
SPEAKER_01And like, you know, we we're gonna have to take the instruments over there if the animals are here. Right.
SPEAKER_03Right, the turn camel. I love it that it was even gonna happen. This is magical.
SPEAKER_01And people have like costumes on over their winter coats and stuff. It was amazing.
SPEAKER_04See, music education. Where else? I mean, nowhere. Save in the world.
SPEAKER_05I don't I don't think this just is beautiful. Not a we this we're not encouraging this. This is not encouraged.
SPEAKER_07That's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01It was the only time they did it, it was that once. Thank God.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Well, everybody has a dumb idea once in a while. Me especially. I got lots of dumb ideas.
SPEAKER_03Uh, but having Jen on this podcast was not one of the dumb ideas.
SPEAKER_05It was one of the brilliant ones. Jennifer, thanks for being here. And I get to see you at 10 a.m. tomorrow on a meeting. Yeah, that'll be fun. Exciting. Super fun. Everybody loves a meeting.
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_05Yep, please. More of them. Thank you for joining us, Jen. I'm looking forward to yet another great year with you leading all of our wonderful teachers and graduate students and the symphonic band. Woot woot. See? Educators should be uh have some ensemble or studio as part of what they do. I think that's a huge part of great teachers of teachers.
SPEAKER_03You can also take this podcast performance and put it at the very bottom of your resume where no one will see it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks for a great conversation, everybody.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you back. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Okay, bye.
SPEAKER_04No, we're starting off.
SPEAKER_05Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to coach. Happy birthday to you. And many more. Great to see you.
SPEAKER_04Too bad this is gonna air January 5th, but that's fine. Happy birthday, brother. Great to see you all.
SPEAKER_05Oh great to see you too. I've missed you.
SPEAKER_02More than your brother. Summer was uh your 45th birthday. Good to all of you.
SPEAKER_05Summer's been great. Summer's been great. Good. Christopher survives a tornado. Survives a tornado. We had to put Louie down. My Louis, not your Louis. Yeah, I heard. So sorry. So sorry. Still a spot over there that smells like Louis where Ellie stuck his head under the bed, though. It's still there. I know I checked today. Is that okay? Not okay? That is okay.
SPEAKER_03That is way okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Our dog just threw up under the bed. That's a doll he did.
SPEAKER_05That happens every day. Well, not under the bed. Your dog throws up every day. Just in new unique places. Yeah. And then defends it when you try to clean it up, he does.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, it's a treasure, you know. He's a treasure.
SPEAKER_05How was your summer, Tim?
SPEAKER_02Great. I got to play with my brother and my nephew in a little in a little event here in Winona.
SPEAKER_07Yep.
SPEAKER_02Fine and a fine tuba player from uh studying at the University of Miami. So that was just uh Oh yeah. Yeah, it was very special.
SPEAKER_04So that was a basically Tim and I didn't play. We just listened to the two college kids play. So Miles and the skids in Miami are in the Winona summer band shell band.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. There were four there was four. There were four of us back there, and it was a little out of control. So Chris and I just started just to listen to them. And we're kind of looking at each other like, hey, did you hear that? And yeah, it was it was a lot of fun. It was a good time.
SPEAKER_04There was no written octave being played. It was either up an octave, down three octaves. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05At least there was a real foundation in hopefully in tune for the Winona band to not be in tune on top of that.
SPEAKER_07Well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_05It was the summer.
SPEAKER_04People I think people had a good time. Did you have a good time, Chris? It was a good time. We did Crown Imperial, it was the first piece, and uh, I just gotta say, we ripped the crap out of that thing. Teamajor six tuplets.
SPEAKER_02Chris is the band was accompanying us. I'm gonna play this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I said I'm playing this one. Yeah, I practiced that one, but yeah. It can handle the rest.
SPEAKER_02I think it was uh 90, 98 degrees in the band show at the start of the concert.
SPEAKER_04No, it was hotter than that. They put the temp on the plaque, the metal plaque on the back that's mounted, and I think that was at 108 warmth. Yeah. It was warm.
SPEAKER_02Unrelenting for us people in the back. You know, nobody thinks of us poor tuba players.
SPEAKER_05No, we don't. That's right.
SPEAKER_02The work that we do to carry ensembles across this globe. You know, last year was the year of the tuba. Is it the year of the flute this year? Is that no is that what I'm hearing? No.
SPEAKER_05Music educator, I don't know. I think advocacy is going to be a big thing this year, though. We had a lot of great um response from Sam Kinjonis and others. In fact, I've had like three or four different people tell me they've bought the book and read it because of the podcast, which is like a whole new layer. First of all, they listened to the podcast. And then second, they actually bought a book from it, and then third told me this is these are this is D. But anyway, um, and I just think this is something like you asked Jen, like, how do we really advocate, do a good job, and then get out there and share it with your brethren. And then you gotta go outside that school as well. Anyway, I think it's the year of advocacy. So otherwise, Joe's gonna say something.
SPEAKER_03Oh no, I was just I, you know, you've had a whole summer here to sort of uh distill your thoughts about uh the podcast and the direction that it's headed. And I'm wondering, you know, out of these the lengthy deliberations that you've had over the course of the summer, you know, what's the outcome? Do you have a bulleted sort of like list of suggestions, you know, about things that we need to follow through on, you know, here for uh season.
SPEAKER_02I first of all, when I was asked when I was asked today, you know, Chris sent me a text and said, Happy birthday podcast starts at eight. I was just happy to be asked back. I thought maybe my role is you reward.
SPEAKER_05You're a gift for us. You your your addition to the podcast is amazing.
SPEAKER_02You you're better than the t-shirt that I've gotten the last two years, Chris. Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, so you had to pay shipping, whatever. Get over it.
SPEAKER_02No, you just no family. I love the advocacy thing, Peter. I love that. I think that's a great idea. I think I I I too, though, have heard people that said, I listened to the podcast. I really like those guys. And I was like, well, come on, like, come on, they're not here. You don't have to say nice things. Yeah, they're and and they do, they say nice things about you. They they like to listen to this. So weird.
SPEAKER_03That's not true.
SPEAKER_05Well, actually, it's really it I first of all, I love to hang with my friends. Let's just be honest, right? Like, this is one of the reasons we started. But unfortunately, I mean, it's a question. Acquaintance. Acquaintance.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Just sort of. In a different state. Person I've been surrounded by for a very long time.
SPEAKER_05But I I would say Phil said it with the Wisconsin WMEA event. He just said it's like our love letter to all you teachers out there working hard every day to teach our the next generation of kids. And it's absolutely true. And um anyway, you said the bandbooser was a huge hit. I totally agree. Uh when you I felt we were just a little stilted tonight. I don't know. I didn't feel like I had my best night, but we're getting, we're just we're you know, stretching out, getting into the opening night.
SPEAKER_02On my way home after having my my steak for supper, I was thinking that Phil was gonna ask me this question. Of course I was. And Phil, I've I've prepared a response. So here we are. Um good. I um without sharing too many of the details, but a a really good friend of mine um who I work with uh lost his dad today. And um and and it had been a kind of a a long stretch of time here where um things had continued in his health just deteriorated, and I I think fortunate for my friend, he was able to have a a long goodbye. Um but between that and I I played golf with some people that I don't see very often this morning. Uh and I've been like as I've gotten older, increasingly surrounded by people who have retired and who've said things like not necessarily by the by the word, but have said, you know, I I kind of miss it. I'm I miss what I used to do all the time. And I I I guess I challenge all of us and even the three or four commute commuters that are out there listening, that maybe there's some things that have become routine in our lives or that have been that get taken for granted that to not do that and to find time to take a deep breath and say, now wait a second, I get to do this. Um and and this is something that I should cherish. Just like these. Like, you know, again, as as as much as as as fun as this is, like what you have created, there this will be archived for times that will come forward that um I think is pretty special. And you know, we we just hired a a new teacher here in in Winona, and she was one of them that mentioned how much she enjoys listening to this podcast. So shout out to Cassidy if you're uh if you listen to this first episode, which I'm sure we will do in our first you know staff meeting. Just when he was getting serious, and I felt like we were reveless, and he's like, it's that you know, like you know, it's kind of my some of my feelings that I had after I after I stopped coaching basketball is these these things that feel sometimes infinite or the the hamster wheel, they are finite. They do they do stop. You know, we're not gonna be doing this forever. And I think we need to take the time to enjoy this um because it it is a gift, and it is it's special that this could happen. Because you know what, if if I would have said to you at Interlockin, um, the two of you who were there, that you know, 30 years later you'd be doing this, you know, Chris would just say, Phil who, and you would look at me like I don't know who you are, get the hell out of my face kind of thing. So I don't know. I I just I I I think this is a gift, and I think we sometimes need to to be more I just more observant of that than I guess I have been in the past number of years.
SPEAKER_04So this might be a good time then to mention that we're broke and this is the final show. Short run season. Short fifth season. Can I borrow 20 bucks? It's been a good run. I still gotta pay the shirts off. I mean, I haven't. I'll see you guys in Midwest. I still hope we get that booth. Oh yeah. The booth is still there, though. We're good. We're good. No, uh, you're the best. That was good. Yep, that was good stuff. Well said, Tim. Well said.
SPEAKER_03How many? Uh what what'll be the total number of episodes this season, Chris? Um 38. 38. Woo! Computer, get ready. It's gonna be a long season. 38. 38 of them.
SPEAKER_05Oh 39, actually, I think.
SPEAKER_03Well, but remember, 32 of them are episodes from the Midwest conference.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03That's right. We're only gonna do seven live.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Oh, wait, that's 39. I can't add 39, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Over.
SPEAKER_04Did you know your eyebrows keep getting longer as you get older?
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. Beyond Artless is sponsored by Beyond the Notes Music Festival. Our mission is to create and provide profound learning and social experiences through music that go beyond the notes. Visit BTN MusicFestival dot com to learn more.
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