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beyond ArtLess
“Beyond ArtLess" with Chris Gleason, Peter Haberman & Phil Ostrander is a podcast that explores the friendships and the community that exists in and outside of the arts and arts education. In each episode of Beyond ArtLess, one of the hosts reveals his mystery guest to the other two. What comes next is a fun-filled conversation revealing the joy of friendship and the artlessness of the hosts. Unlike most successful classrooms, this show is not well planned and probably not worth your time.
beyond ArtLess
John Greene
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The Band Whisperer: John Greene
What do you get when you combine 37 years of teaching, thousands of rehearsals, a lifetime of listening, and a healthy appreciation for classic rock? You get John Greene—and one heck of a conversation.
This week on Beyond Artless, we sit down with retired music educator, clinician, adjudicator, arranger, guitarist, and all-around rehearsal junkie John Greene. John shares stories from a career that spans Wisconsin and Minnesota, from his unexpected transition from PE major to music education student (including a memorable two-and-a-half-hour Schoenberg violin recital) to his years working with middle school musicians, jazz ensembles, marching programs, and teachers across the country.
We talk about why high expectations and middle school musicians absolutely can coexist, the power of relationships and trust, why “be more expressive” might be one of the least helpful comments we can give a young musician, and how something as simple as a pencil and a “drill box” can transform a rehearsal.
John also shares what he has learned from a lifetime of mentors, why music teachers need to spend more time choosing music their students can actually be successful with, how to build meaningful relationships with administrators, and why music educators across disciplines need to stop looking at each other as competition and start recognizing that we all need each other.
And because this is Beyond Artless, we eventually abandon all of that wisdom for a rapid-fire trip through 1970s rock: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Terry Kath, Frampton Comes Alive, Fleetwood Mac, Shostakovich, Ives, and the proper use of a popsicle stick in an eight-track player.
It's a conversation full of great stories, practical rehearsal wisdom, and the kind of perspective that makes you want to get back into the band room and try something new on Monday.
Plus: Chris has rocks. You'll have to listen to understand.
Credits:
Arnold Schoenberg
Pierrot Lunaire
1. Moondrunk
Curtis Institute of Music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8OMOhmfP9I
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Hey commuter, are you looking for a podcast that brings you insight and wisdom? A podcast that lifts your spirits and makes you belly laugh. A podcast that inspires you and gets you ready to tackle another week? Well, send us an email and we'd be happy to recommend a few. Until then, you're stuck with us. This is Beyond Artless.
SPEAKER_02It's okay.
SPEAKER_03So who uh who here has photocopied some music this weekend?
SPEAKER_02I have not. I will tell you I spanned music and put it on my iPad right here, which has like all of my thousands of scores on it.
SPEAKER_05Um I want to tell you that the process to um send over a photocopying request to printing services is very easy. Got it?
SPEAKER_02Okay. Highly illegal and very easy. Ah, you people at my face. All right. Christopher, how are you doing? Excellent. I I'm great. Uh does like the whole start of the school year affect you anymore? I mean, your wife, obviously, but um no, not really.
SPEAKER_03Uh the first year, I actually hopped on my bike and I rode uh because I I was so distraught. It was really hard because I first stayed for you know nearly 30 years. Okay, I have a rock. Okay, this is my rock friend, and it the rock friend comes with me to to meetings, and I'm excited because now I have another rock. I have two rock friends. See, this is the happy rock, and this is kind of the sad and confused rock. This is a podcast. So depending on the kind of meeting, can you describe it? Sure, they're they're rocks, and they may or may not have come from Door County.
SPEAKER_05It seems to me like maybe Chris has already had an honor band or two already yet this semester.
SPEAKER_02Um these are two uh white rocks with pencil or pen pen. Landscape rocks, too. Nothing special. Nope. It's got like a one's got a smirk and one's got like a half frown with eyebrows. Yeah. And he's really proud. Okay. Okay, you can stop now. No, not helpful. Put it down.
SPEAKER_04Chris, um what uh do you have use for the rocks in the meetings?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh when it gets really stressful, I just take it and I just start doing this. Petting the top of the rock. Like a thumbing stone.
SPEAKER_02It's like a thumbing stone.
SPEAKER_03It is, and it really actually relaxes the other people in the in the meeting. It's cutting edge. This is new. Um, I'm gonna start uh selling these uh if it's not breaking copyright, but I will start selling these.
SPEAKER_05So big day today at the Ostranders. We gave Ted Teddy the dog a bath. Big day. Oh does he fight that or like that? Loves it. Loves the bath. Read interesting. Okay, it's the golden in them. Warm water, people scratching me, and all that kind of good stuff. Loves it.
SPEAKER_02Loves it. But how about the dog? Me too.
SPEAKER_07I was just gonna say.
SPEAKER_02Um I just want to close the loop on the rocks there, Chris. If the rocks ever start talking to you during the meetings, it's time to go on that bike ride again. It's time to get out. Yeah, that's a good point.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I haven't gotten there yet, but uh it's been a lot of petting in the rocks. Um, yeah, that's good. Who's uh who's taking a bath at your place, Peter? Not me.
SPEAKER_02That's for sure. Look at that hair. Oh my gosh. We have had like almost zero rain since June 13th. Zero. Really? At our house. Southern Moorhead pours rain. North of us pours rain. Today, literally all of North Dakota had a cell and it broke apart, skipped our house, and came back together on the other side. We were supposed to get inches of rain today. Bupkus. Like my grass is literally still brown, dry, dead. And everybody around here has stopped even using their watering systems because it's just they have like little putting greens around each head, and they it can't keep up. It's so dry. So, anyway, um, I don't know why I had to bring that up, but it's just exhausting.
SPEAKER_00I'm getting bored here.
SPEAKER_02Anything else? It's good.
SPEAKER_05Hey, wait, uh wait a second. It's Green Bay. Football season is getting dangerously close to starting, Chris. What if do you have your finger on the pulse uh in Green Bay? What give us the update?
SPEAKER_03Uh uh Okay, the update is uh currently at time of recording. Uh the Badgers are playing right now in Notre Dame at Lambeau Field. And so I just want you to know that people know that I sell seat cushions, the rentals, you know, and they're asking me now. They're like, Were you are you there tonight selling seat cushions? And I'm like, you know, I'm glad that I'm known for this now. But no, I'm not. My uh when you go to sell my organization doesn't go out until it's really cold. Like this is way too warm for us. Oh, okay. I see.
SPEAKER_02Well, speaking of the Packers, we have a uh Packers fan on tonight as a guest. Oh, you do. Green screen. We got a green screen. Yes, right. Um you're in for real treat. Now, here's the secret, and this person won't doesn't know I'm gonna say this, but that's okay. They can't stop me. Um this person for sure tonight is the smartest and most talented guy on the screen, but often is the most smartest. No, no, tonight, but he's just you know, this isn't as little. Yeah, but he's usually the smartest and most talented guy in the room, but works really hard to blend in, so you'll never know. Reads the room well, builds up the people around him. He loves to learn by listening to others talk, he loves to encourage and prop people up. He's super humble, unbelievably creative, and has a great sense of humor. All of these markers make him better than he should not be on this podcast, like just straight away. This guest uh had a career of teaching around Wisconsin and Minnesota and spent the majority of his time teaching in the 196th school district. Uh knows Phil? Kind of knows Chris uh from Humble Musical Beginnings and Adams Friendship and starting college as a PE major. He holds degrees from the University of Wisconsin Stevens Point in Minnesota State University. Um we have to ask him about um when he switched to be a music major in his undergrad. He was right at the time that there was a Schoenberg and Ives music festival, and you gotta hear this story. It's hilarious. Okay, anyway. Um he was the 2013 music educator of the year for Minnesota. Also a Packers fan, as we mentioned, he's taught for 37 years and is now happily enjoying time as a passionate, nearly daily golfer and a guitarist in his retirement. He's lauded for his work with concert bands, jazz bands, marching arts. He's been awarded numerous honors at jazz festivals, appeared at MMEA multiple times, served as the jazz chair for MMEA. I think I know. He's a middle school level director for the Minnesota Youth Jazz. I know about the reason for the green screen. It is a green screen.
SPEAKER_04There is a member of the green screen.
SPEAKER_02There is a reason it's a green screen. Active arranger for culture band, jazz band, marching band, percussion, chamber groups. His role as adjudicator, he adjudges over 25 events a year and goes 14 states plus Canada international adjudicator. Serves in leadership roles as a judge administrator for the Mint American Competing Band Directors Association and the Minnesota Percussion Association. Hot shot. Phil. Definitely a hot shot. Hotshot. Our guest tonight is Is this John Green? It's John Green. Good job, Phil. Look at this. How'd you figure it out? So what was it that tipped you off? I mean the smartest guy in the room, not Phil.
SPEAKER_05You were reading this like list of you know uh honors and recently we retired and uh and I I just put it all I put it together. I don't know why. Like I I don't know why. Well, you spend a lot of time with the Middle Eclair Jazz Festival every year, I'm assuming, yes?
SPEAKER_02I think, yeah, John, we we meet up there typically, don't we?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. I've I've been going there since 1976.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01In some fashion, as a participant or as a judge or as just a spectator.
SPEAKER_02Anyway, John Green, welcome to the show. We're really glad to have you here. Um John, this is fantastic. Welcome. Thank you for doing this. Thank you. John, you gotta start with a story about your humble beginnings. So John said to me, Oh my gosh, I just wasn't ready. Like the first time I saw Marimba was when I got to college, right? Yeah. So you gotta tell them this story because it's just hilarious. All of us music geeks will think it's all.
SPEAKER_01Well, I had I was one of those kids in high school who did everything, and band was just one of the things. I knew I wanted to be a teacher. So I so I went to Stevens Point because it was the closest college. That's why I went there. And um I started as a Fayette major, and while I was a Fayette major, I was in percussion ensemble. I was the third drummer in the third jazz ensemble because that was the first time I ever was in a jazz ensemble, because we didn't have one, and I was in a concert band. And uh anyway, uh so I switched over, started taking lessons to a music major, and I had to start going to recitals. And the first recital I went to that wasn't our actual Wednesday recital was part of our Schoenberg Eyes Festival that week. Um and I went to a solo unaccompanied violin recital of the music of Schoenberg, and I was crawling out of my skin because this kid from Adam's friendship was not ready for what that was gonna do. And I marched into my advisor's office the next day after two and a half grueling hours, and I said, I can't be a music major if this is what I have to do. I cannot listen to this stuff. Two and a half hours of unaccompanied Schoenberg violin. Can you imagine?
SPEAKER_07Not good, not good.
SPEAKER_01And we were playing Schoenberg in um uh in band, we're playing the variations uh in orchestra. We were doing the 4th of July, and I was a cymbal player, and I couldn't follow the orchestra director for anything, trying to be two marching bands playing the cymbals converging upon each other, you know. So, and many people were struggling, so I thought I think I was okay.
SPEAKER_02I love it, I love it. Uh, well, John, thanks for being here. And uh I know we brought this up, and in fact, you're even an adjudicator at the Eau Claire Jazz Festival now, too. So I wanted to start off. Um, I mean, how many days last year do you think you were in somebody's band room, either clinicking them in their school or acting as an adjudicator at a festival? Like how many days last year do you think? Oh, I don't know. Maybe 30. So um some have called you the band whisperer. Um tell me why you think that is and what a band director could learn from somebody who spends so much time listening to so many different groups.
SPEAKER_01Well, when I when I work with bands, I I first of all try to find out what they're doing well. And even if it's just a smidgen of doing something well, especially if it's artistic or if it's expressive or musical, and I hop on that right away, just trying to encourage them to do more of that kind of thing and take those risks um with with their kids and and trust their kids to be able to do that stuff. And then the comments I make, um, I'm not there to clean anyone when I go like help a band prepare for MMEA or anything like that. Um, yeah, with my drum core background, believe me, I know how to clean. I mean, that's what you learn, but I don't get a lot of I don't get a lot of uh gratification from cleaning. So I try to give the say things to them that maybe wouldn't be obvious, and things that they can work on that are just a little bit more sometimes they're understated things, sometimes they're you know artistic things, but just get them thinking that little little bit that way, all the time, affirming that they have the skills to do this, because I I believe they do. And I don't care if it's high school, I don't care if it's middle school, you gotta believe the kids can play musically at any level if you're giving them music that they can achieve. I love it. Yeah, that's cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, John. I I uh know you through Bernie Powers and Mark Davison, and I mean, because you have a long history. Uh Macbeth, you know, I mean, uh has gone through a ton of transformation, and I think the marching arts alone has gone through a ton of stuff over the last like 30 years. Oh, yeah. Um what do you see uh through your perspective? What have you seen uh as far as that transformation, both good and maybe even some concerning things?
SPEAKER_01Well, I you know, when I started in the whole thing, I was a rare breed because I got out of drum core and I graduated from college about the same time I aged out of drum core. And let me tell you, you could count on one hand how many people there were with music degrees that marched snare drum in a drum corps. That was very, very unusual. And um, but that gave me a huge advantage in terms of what I could bring to my to my job. And what I saw at the beginning, there were definite camps. There was like drumcor's bad camp, where band people, we do band a certain way, and um the drum corps people will say that the band don't know doesn't know how to do it right, and it's just a clash of egos. And I was this person that lived in both worlds, and really I enjoyed my college marching band experience a lot, and I the same with my drumcore experience. And what I've seen happen is is these worlds have all converged, and now they're they really commingle so so well, and I don't I don't hear people badmouth like march college marching bands hardly at all anymore, or drum chords, right? And I gotta believe people may be kind of getting it, you know. We all need each other. We all need each other in the arts. We don't want to be turning on each other and putting down our and letting our egos take over and stuff like that. We need each other because together we're more powerful, we have a greater impact. Um, and the kids who do both, they're gonna they're gonna really benefit from it all. And they're gonna be those people that are gonna be advocating the same way. I love that.
SPEAKER_05That's extremely well said. I I I don't know if Peter mentioned it in the introduction, I probably should have, but John, I mean, you made you had a career uh working with a young instrumentalist, middle school kids, you know. Um, but I know that you're a very capable high school band director, and you offer you could offer plenty to college groups. I mean, you're a great musician. It doesn't really matter, but uh somewhere along the lines, the middle school age bracket it must have become your thing. Did was there a specific time where that happened or not really?
SPEAKER_01It was a little by accident. I was at Rosemont High School in 1996 in the spring, and I was a band coordinator and I was helping do interviews for this new middle school in Apple Valley called Falcon Ridge. It was going to open up that fall. And um at time at the time we were you know having some challenges at home because our our daughter had was a sixth grader or fifth grader, and she was just diagnosed with autism. And our our home life was really challenging because of that, especially mornings and going to school and just all that. And I was kind of feeling guilty about being a high school band director. And so at the interview I told the principal, I said, Hey, you know, I think I'd like to teach at Falcon Ridge. And he said, You got a week to decide. And I unbe unbeknownst to anyone, and the surprise of the world, I I left Rosemont High School and it worked out.
SPEAKER_02That's great. I mean, okay, so let's talk about those young musicians. What are some myths about young musicians and middle school musicians that we should dissolve and get rid of as band directors?
SPEAKER_01Um, you can't have high expectations is a myth myth. You can have high expectations, they just have to be the expectations that are suited for where that group is at. That's all. You can't there is no middle school palette. You have to know you know your kids and know what they're capable of. Um at Falcon Ridge, we tried to offer something for everyone. We had things that, you know, you kind of get known for the things that are out and about and sound really well and do are successful. But I mean, we had remediation programs for kids who needed more time. My mornings before school oftentimes were with kids that were struggling. Um, and you know, we we just tried to reach everyone and have groups for every different kind of kid. Uh and our number one goal in middle school was to try to keep them in band.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right. Just keep them there longer. Um I think the reason, no, this is just me projecting, but I think the reason you're the band whisperer and why you were so successful with those younger musicians is it's pretty easy to tell you care about them, and you also have this way to like wiggle your way into their minds and their hearts and build that trust and relationship with them, and then they can kind of hear what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01Um is there it's all about connections, it's all about connections, it really is. And when I have a kid that's that is just not into it, won't bring their horn up in time, whatever, won't has trouble getting to class on times, I make it a point to to make connection with that kid. I meet them at the door, I talk to them, I find out what else is going on in their life, and I don't even talk about the band stuff that want them to do better until I think that that trust is there and I've got some stuff in the bank, and it's sincere, you know. I mean, we all care about the kids, and I know the product is going to be so gratifying for them. And sometimes those kids, you see them three years later or something in high school, they're some of the best members there are.
unknownOh my god.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, we had a kid, I remember in seventh, it was a seventh grader who really had a tough time attending, wanted to switch to percussion, and uh he had trouble sitting in his chair, and I didn't think percussion was the best thing for him because he couldn't sit in the chair with his horn. Well, we let him switch in eighth grade. Long story short, he went to UMass, majored in percussion performance and composition. He marched snare with Carolina Crown. He's a DCI judge, and he makes his living writing music for video games.
SPEAKER_02I love that.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you just never know. You never know.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, you don't even know in high school or college what our lives are going to be like later, well, let alone 12. Um, John, tell me about some of your other students you're the most proud of. Who are some students that you've had in the past that are super successful and whatever they are that you're really proud of?
SPEAKER_01That's really hard. I mean, because there's so many of them. Um most of our kids, at like most places, you know, they didn't go into music. Um because they were they had lots of different gifts and lots of different and so much support from their parents and so much support from each other's and stuff like that. So, you know, I I have kids who are college music directors. I have uh uh former piano player who leads the Lawrence Jazz ensemble. I mean, uh heart surgeons, uh you name it. Um it's uh we had a young man who uh was a heart surgeon, and his father was our superintendent, and we were at the O'Claire Jazz Festival, and uh John Fattis, I don't know if you remember that. Were you there then when John Fattus was the uh clinician? Before the time, but maybe Chris. Into the fattisphere, yeah. Well, anyway, we're at the big thing in Gatner, the big clinic, and and this young man's got his hand up, and he says, Oh, I'm going, oh no, what's he gonna do? He was a seventh grader, he played, he was a really, really good player, but he was just a little guy and hadn't gone through his changes to make him stronger. But anyway, he raises that his question and he asks the question that you ask at Trumpet workshop. And he said, Mr. Fattis, how high can you play? And the place erupted. And John was so masterful. He said, He said, I'm not sure. How high can you play? And the kid said, Well, I can play a D. Well, get up here and show us. And the guy, the kid's like four foot nothing. And he squeaks out something. And the place went crazy, you know, because this little kid did what he did. And his dad, the superintendent of 196, was there. And I tell you, that did more for support of instrumental music in 196 than anything I can think of.
SPEAKER_02Nice work, John Fattis. Nice work. Right? That's a great story. I love your stories. Love your stories.
SPEAKER_03Let's talk about since it's the beginning of the year for so many folks. What is a strategy or something that you recall, just something you love doing at the beginning of every year?
SPEAKER_01Um, I love training my band how to rehearse effectively. And it was a training, and we went through kind of a training. And I had some sayings, like one of my sayings was, don't be that kid, when they would do knucklehead stuff. And they would they all knew what that meant meant. And we talked, um, but we had a lot of laughs in my band. But when I bring my arms up, they their horns always came up. And when we ended a tune, they left their horns up until my horns came, my hands came down. And I didn't have to get mean about it at all. If their horns didn't come up, I would just say, Hey, let's try that again. Maybe six times. Hey, let's try it. And then the kids would say, Hey, he means you, you know, and just trying to get them to commute. And then, and I would say things like, you know, we need everyone to play on that first note. There's none of you that are born to beat three. I mean, you can all come in on count one and making sure they're breathing through there. The whole breathing thing we work on at the beginning of the year. I would not let them play their horns independently until we did it together, until about October. And by that time, we had talked a lot about it and said, here's the kind of things I want to hear you playing. Not blasting in someone's ears, not having a high note contest, not seeing what kind of bodily function noises you can make on your instrument. Those all have their time and place, but not when we're together, okay? And uh and just like you're laughing, they would laugh too. And then you start to hear kids playing. We okay, I'm gonna give you one minute to play the kinds of things you should play. And then I would take that. I have a thing in rehearsals called alone time. And this comes from talking to some of my better players. And a kid says to me one time, Mr. Green, you know, when we were working on something, we work all together, or you work just on the clarinets, if you would just give us 30 seconds or a minute, a lot of us could could work it out because we just need to do it alone, just to work out our own individual problems. Now, they didn't say it that eloquently, but anyway, I would say, okay, guys, uh rehearsal or at rehearsal 33, I'm gonna give you 30 seconds of alone time, and let's see what you can do with this. And they would try to work it out, and you would start hearing those little snippets. We call them uh at our school, we call them drill boxes. In their concert music were boxes around the music that were parts that they needed to work on. And sometimes we would go start a rehearsal, say we're gonna work on this piece, we're gonna start a drill box number seven, and we're gonna do it four times in a row with four beats in between, and we'd rep it. So you did the boxes before they got the music, you know, they do it, they write them in. They all had a pencil in middle school. You have to do it like this. Okay, everyone, pick up your pencil. That's how you start.
SPEAKER_02You would tell you college isn't much different, John.
SPEAKER_01Nothing. We're just older middle schoolers, and we do these drill boxes and we just make and I said now, and you see them in their lesson books too, because in their lesson books, they they're working on just you know stuff that's for their instrument, and you see drill boxes all the time because this kid will say, Well, I like to start at the beginning of a song and play to the end. And I said, you know, you the beginning's gonna be great, the end's gonna be terrible, and there's gonna be some rough spots. So we we had this whole drill box concept, and everyone at our school knew what drill boxes were, and they work really well.
SPEAKER_02John, you're a huge mentor to so many teachers now that you're retired. You're like a rehearsal junkie, you're out there all the time uh helping anybody that um will let you volunteer in their classroom. Um and just listening to you talk about all these examples, um, what are some of the great things you're seeing from younger teachers today? And if you could talk to all of them collectively and give them one or two things that you see being the biggest thing they could grow at, what would that be?
SPEAKER_01Well, what I see, first of all, is I, you know, a lot of my concert band judging is done in smaller schools. And I kind of concentrate mostly south of the Twin Cities simply because I don't like to have to drive through the cities to go somewhere for a seven o'clock report. So, but anyway, I I'm working and I see so much fabulous teaching that being in my district, I I didn't know existed. I had no idea there were so many fine teachers out there that are doing a great job and they they're all by themselves, and you know, it's just first of all, I'm amazed by that. Um, the thing that I would say is to young teachers is the most important thing you do when you don't have your kids is spend time selecting music that they can be successful at. I spent more time in my prep selecting music than anything else. I was crazy about it. Um, I'm doing a jazz chart. What's the first thing I look at? I look at the bass part, I look at the changes. If we can't improvise in those changes and I'm a bass player can't play it, it's out. I don't care how much I like the tune. And when I was a younger teacher, oh, I've always wanted to play this tune. I can't wait for my band to play it. You know, well, that that everyone learns that lesson. But I would just say spend some time. Um, really spend some time, you know, preparing and making sure you play things that are gonna be good for your kids. There's no one cares if you play grade three or four music. Your audience certainly doesn't, but they do care and they're gonna feel good if they play it successfully.
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SPEAKER_02Visit Grand Tours online at Grand Tours Inc.com. That's Grand ToursInc.com. To learn more about their services and request an international tour design specifically for your ensemble. Can't get enough of me? Not sick of me yet? Come get your master's degree in music education with me at Concordia College in Moorhead, Minnesota. We offer a hybrid degree plan so you can keep teaching and getting paid and still have an in-person cohort in the summers to enrich your experience and learn a lot from others as well. Already have your masters? Prank your less educated colleagues by sending them my way. You got students? Ship those beautiful children off to Moorhead. We want your music majors, your non-majors, good kids, bad kids, smart kids, and everything in between. Music scholarships here are available for all students with an annual deadline of February 1st. Info about all these options and more can be found at Concordiacollege.edu slash music. That's Concordiacollege.edu slash music. Or just contact me and I'll take care of it.
SPEAKER_05So, John, one of my favorite things about you is that you're just a kind person and that you're so easy to spend time with. And I think that endeared you to your students and to everybody around you. Um, but I'm not sure that I know plenty of teachers that are are great people and I like them, but that doesn't always spell success. Um you know, with students. Um and so one of the things I've noticed when I've seen you give clinics and when I see you work with groups is that you you're a quick study. Um in other words, as soon as you hear something, there's about it there's a plan that's formulating um and also along with that plan a willingness to pivot or be flexible and change courses quickly if need be. I'm wondering if that was something that came instinctive for you when you started teaching, or you had to develop that skill.
SPEAKER_01I developed that skill. I had to I had to develop that skill. I had some fabulous mentors. I mean, holy cow. I mean, the places I've taught, we're we got to many times we had people coming into our our school as clinicians, and I just soaked that up. And um, in the jazz world, um I got to be friends with Fred Sturm back in the late 70s, and Fred would come over and work with my kids at Manitowac um for dinner. I just had to give him dinner. He just had to feed them. We'll work for food. He's like a drummer. Which was which was hard because he was a vegetarian. And if you know John, he's not a vegetarian, so I had to figure something out a lot of macaroni and cheese. But anyway, I mean, and I always I always think Fred's one of those was one of the kindest persons, made everyone in the room feel fabulous. And boy, I I wanted to do that. I wanted to be like I know I couldn't be like him, but I had to have my own version of Fred Sturm, and he was pretty powerful uh mentor in my life. Who are some other mentors like that for you? Well, along that same line, see, I was a huge Matrix fan growing up in Wisconsin. I don't know if you guys know the band Matrix. Yeah, I'm sure Phil does. And um I was I I got called at the last minute in my second year teaching to be a teacher at the Green Bay Jazz Camp. And I was thrilled. I was so thrilled, but not as thrilled as I was when I got to got there, and I get to share like one of those student condo area uh things I had, those fourplexes. And um my roommate were my roommates were Tex, who's the lead player for Matrix, and John Harmon.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow, you know, every summer I do the Red Lodge Music Festival with John Harmon.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02It still goes out there. It's still he's made anyway early. Yeah. Anyway, keep going.
SPEAKER_01And so they were in my head and in my ears, and and John was my piano players were studying with John. Because uh from Manitowak to Winnick County, it wasn't that far. And so, you know, that was fabulous. And it's then my last year there, we had John write a suite for the band. And the funny story is we're having we're gonna have our dress rehearsal in this. We had a big, big rehearsal hall at uh our uh auditorium, at 1600 seat auditorium at Manitowoc. And I'm getting ready in my office, and some kids come in. Hey, Mr. Green, one of the custodians is playing the piano in the in the PAC, but but he's really good. It was John, he's got his jeans on and his jean jacket and stuff with a Packer jersey underneath, of course. You know, I love it. That's great. Uh, did you ever tell John that they thought he was a custodian?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. I love that too.
SPEAKER_01He did uh he did an artist in residence in at St. Olaf a couple uh years ago, and I got to reconnect with him, which was was really, really fun because yeah, I mean he's amazing to do an arrangement. Oh, and what huge ears, so humble, and he sounds like no other piano player. It's true.
SPEAKER_02And it this summer camp in um he teaches basic improv classes to these kids, and then he also coaches there's uh kids can audition to be part of the the top high school jazz combo, and they just get to work with John for an hour and a half a day for a whole week and then go out, and it's just magnificent how much at what is he 94? He's like 94, and he still shows up there with his wife, and his son comes, of course. And yeah, um, and I'm just like, there's so many things you could be doing, John, at 94 in Montana right now, other than working with this kid playing the bass clarinet that can't find their way out of a 12-bar blues if and you've been trying to help him all week. And he is just helpful. Oh, it's just amazing to watch the power of relationship and music. It's great.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that that whole the whole thing that he started Lawrence with the jazz program, I mean, it's it's just amazing. And the students did, and then I was gonna talk about and i in in the concert band world, um um being a Manitowoc in summers I would go down to the the conducting workshop at Northwestern Um University with John Painter, which was very humbling. And is like me, and then sitting next to me is Mallory Thompson, and because she was a student, you know, and um I had a good friend, uh one of my college roommates, uh Don Schleicher, who went through that program. Oh wow, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Don Schleicher is a point guy. Yeah. Look at you just growing for everybody. That's just crazy. So I'm just a little, I'm a little bit of a lot of people. I don't know how original I am in anything, but I've had some pretty amazing people. Phil, Phil is a mentor of mine. When I would go to Eau Claire Jazz Festival and I was not participating as a judge or as a participant, I would find out whatever room Phil Alstrander was in, and I would go there and I would listen to his comments because he was filling my bag of tricks and my whole philosophy about making rich comments. I would go listen to Phil work with bands. And that means I mean you're blowing me up here, buddy.
SPEAKER_05Uh that's okay. Peter Chris will bring me back to Earth. It's all right. We bought it.
SPEAKER_02I watched him do this with the uh middle school band festival every year, and he he uh he writes that ship from whatever he's doing at the jazz festival. He like brings that back in the club. Even Steven, yeah, he uses it all up in uh in early April, and by the time it gets to late May, it's over. Nothing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the college kids that usually go watch him are like, really? Is that how it's done? I'm like, no, no, it's not.
SPEAKER_05Um John, uh uh you spend a lot of time, like Peter mentioned, mentoring oh, teachers of all ages at this point. Um and I know when you taught, it's not all roses. You know, you've got struggles with parents, with certain students, with budgets, with um enrollment, with I mean, all sorts of struggles. How did you keep from letting all of those struggles sort of like take over? Uh and instead of you know, uh seeing all the positives, how did you avoid sort of getting uh quagmired with the negatives?
SPEAKER_01It's because my favorite thing to do every day was rehearse my groups and teach lessons. That's I mean, I'm a rehearsal guy, I love rehearsals, I love lessons, I love small group sectionals, I love any of that kind of stuff way more than concert and performances. Um, and in middle school, honestly, your best moments, and Chris might agree with this, your best musical moments probably happened in a rehearsal. Um it's just kind of the nature of the beast. And if a middle school teacher isn't saying that, I think they're they're not being honest with themselves. Um, so that other stuff, no matter what was going on, I always got to go rehearse someone that day, or I always got to go do a sectional or or do a midday group or something like that. And that that always fed me. So it's just the other stuff was just yeah, part of the job, everyone's got to do it. And yeah.
SPEAKER_03John, uh let me ask you this. Uh just one more here, Peter Peter, real quick. We just finished writing the new Wisconsin music standards, and part of the thing that just changed when it came to uh the concept of performance or expression is that there is an emphasis on individual growth, just as there is an emphasis on larger ensemble, and that there is a distinction there, that we have to hold that friction. Um, because and I hear you talking about there's large ensemble, full classroom learning and exploration, but then you also talk about the concept of lessons. And I understand fully that not every program has a lesson program. However, there is a reality in which kids have to grow as musicians in their own way, on their own instrument, their own pedagogy. And can you speak to that a little bit? Like how did you see that play out in your career?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, that's especially hard in middle school because a middle schooler's number one goal every day at school is not to be embarrassed. So if you are asking them to take risks, especially like Chris says, as an individual, and maybe be expressive or artistic, um, boy, that's that's a huge one. But I think that as long at that age age level that we're planting seeds, we're giving them an example of how to, we got to give them tools. I mean, how many times have people written like on a solo ensemble form be more expressive? Well, that's silly. How should I be more expressive? Do you want me to use contour dynamics? Should I be more rubato at times? Should I stress notes? Um, should you want me to do things more rhythmically? You want to be me to do more directional things with my rhythms and how I group things? Give them some tools. Don't just say be more expressive, because that's just like like telling an artist to paint better.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, write that down. This is so good. Everything you even say to us is like, I'm gonna be better, I'm gonna be better on Wednesday and rehearsal because of this, John. I love that. That's just silly. Um, okay, I just wanted to get this up because I we're our time's running low, but I know that we talked about the superintendent dad earlier, and we just talked a little bit about um administration as well and meetings. And I know that you had a big role, though probably behind the scenes more at 196, that's really molded and helped to maintain that program and with lessons and numbers and all that stuff. Um it's so you've always been a teacher. Obviously, the teaching feeds your soul, that's what I hear you saying. But you are a not just a band whisperer, you're also like an administrator whisperer. Like, how did you learn that skill, or how if you could tell your younger self what you know now about administrators and how to work with administrators for the benefit of the students, how how would you coach your younger self?
SPEAKER_01Just like with your kids and you communicate and you try to get things in the bank, you have to do that in a sincere way with your administrator. You gotta get them in your room. You just gotta get them in your room so because you're they're gonna see the great things you can do. Um, I would tell my my administrators, I please don't evaluate me by how my concert goes. The real meat and potatoes of what we do as teachers happens in the classroom every day. Watch me greet kids as they come in the door, watch me as I as the kids leave my classroom, watch me out in the hallway with kids. All these things is what puts it together. And then as teachers, we're gonna get some yeses and some no's from our administrator. And we can't get five yeses in a row. And then get a no, and then all of a sudden we're sitting there and we're saying how bad an administrator this is. It's like I think sometimes as teachers, we are like the charter members of the what have you done for me lately club? And there's a history there. Yeah. I mean, you know, so build the administrators, you just gotta be you gotta keep building that and you gotta kind of, you know, subtly educating them on what you do, why it's important, why it's valuable. And they may not get the musical stuff, but they'll get the thing the stuff that's gonna make their kids better citizens, better citizens in their school, leaders in their school. Um, and the smart administrators, they realize this, and Chris can talk about this. When you need parent support as a principal, the band parents are about the first place you go because they've already, you know, they're already there for you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that and chess club. Chess club's big, that's a huge one. But uh yeah, band's up there, maybe number two.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh. Okay, John. So uh gentlemen, uh, other you want, I mean, we can make this go three hours with John Green. It's easy, as you can see. I've got myself uh a speed run here. Are we ready for that? Or do we have some more burning questions?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, I think that's fine. Go speed run, but you try to make it speedy. You're usually kind of okay.
SPEAKER_02This is from the guy that had the three and a half minute question that almost wasn't a question, and then you ended up saying what do you have to say about that? Okay, um, so uh John had told me that he stopped listening to rock and roll in the late 70s because he got really got really stopped petting that rock. Um he got really into listening to jazz and classical music, you know, and and uh once he started teaching. So, but he's a big fan of classic rock, and as you can see, the guitars behind him, he loves to play.
SPEAKER_01So I have the label, I put the label lamp on for you guys. It's a 70s film, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So we got a speed round here, 70s rock tune speed round. Are you ready? Here we go.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, John, Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd? Um, it's a hard one, but but uh Led Zeppelin. Led Zeppelin. Okay. Jimmy Jimmy Page is Jimmy Page is the reason why. Yeah, yeah. The really guitar player.
SPEAKER_02Uh best album opening riff of the 1970s.
SPEAKER_01Boy, I like so many of them. Um right now I'm working on one from Heart, uh, the opening riff to Crazy on You. Oh, yeah. It's it's an acoustic guitar riff, and uh the woman who plays it, I can't remember her name because I'm really bad with people and bands' names, but man, unbelievable. Most underrated 70s rock guitarist. Easy Terry Kath, Chicago. Terry Kat, Chicago was basically got their big break when they got to be the front band for Jimi Hendrix. Jimi Hendrix hung out with Terry Kath, and Jimi Hendrix said, He's better than me.
SPEAKER_07Cool.
SPEAKER_02Uh okay, just a few more. Vinyl, cassette, or eight-track preferred 70s medium.
SPEAKER_01Vinyl, unless you have a popsicle stick to stick in the side of the eight-track to make sure it's tracking correctly. This is what we did. Wow.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Uh, best live album, Frampton Comes Alive or Alive by KISS.
SPEAKER_01Oh, Frampton Comes Alive. Okay, yeah, it's um KISS KISS is more production. I mean, you know, um, you know, I don't I'm not sure how much authentic soul. I hope I'm not gonna, you know, alienate your KISS audience out there, but yeah. Yeah, we're gonna get a lot of things.
SPEAKER_02Which band defined the decade more for you, Queen or Fleetwood Mac?
SPEAKER_01You know, I would have said Queen um probably 10 years ago, but I've really gotten to appreciate Fleetwood Mac um since I play guitar. And um some pretty incredible stuff is going on there that's it's it's kind of understated, but there's a complexity to the understatement that's actually pretty amazing. And um and the the way they work the layers and stuff, it's I I would again Queen's more highly produced. Sure. Can you tell that John doesn't like highly produced stuff?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you like you like the you like the singer-songwriter stuff. It's gotta be real art behind it. If it's not real art behind it, you smell it coming and kind of broadcast.
SPEAKER_03Three more.
SPEAKER_02It's just like okay, highly produced, not this podcast. Uh, three more. If you could steal one front man's voice for a day, who would it be? Robert Plant.
SPEAKER_01Shastakovich or Mahler? Shostakovich. And the last I I got to play, I got to play the Tippany part to Shosti V in uh Central Wisconsin Symphony. My progression teacher let me do that, and that was like, oh my god, it's just hard to play because your body's just so consumed by goosebumps. And yeah. And then in the finale of the fifth movement, that that resolution um that what before it goes into D mate, it's just like the that right before the Maestoso, oh, how can you not have goosebumps when that happens? That's just my that's one of my favorite moments in classical music.
SPEAKER_02Uh well, or concordia orchestra is doing Shosti Five right now, and uh there's a lot of great moments coming out of that over trying to get work done. And that would usually be our last one, but I have one more because of our earlier conversation. Schurnberg or Ives? Jeez.
SPEAKER_01I think Ives is much more accessible, that's true, and not overproduced. And you know, and maybe I don't understand. All I remember about Schoenberg's theme and variations is I'm a freshman, and this is pieces, too long. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07I love it.
SPEAKER_05Uh John. I got one more serious question, Peter. You can relax, just take it easy. You did a great job with the speed round. It was pretty speedy for you. Um uh, John, we've been, it's not a theme for our season or anything, but almost all of our guests we've been asking them about um how we're going to have to evolve as um music teachers in um sort of spreading our gospel and so that the people know what's going on, why it's good, um, so that uh music education survives um into the future. And I'm wondering if you have a thought about how how we can do that as teachers, you know, better publicize and share what it is that we do.
SPEAKER_01Okay, a couple things. First of all, like what I said before, we all need each other. That thing about whole the margin arts would look at each other cross-eyed years ago. That goes across a whole music spectrum. We need each other. And to that end, many times we'll have budget cuts threatened or something in a school district. And what do the animals do when their water hole starts to dry up? They look at each other differently, and that can't happen. That can't happen. That's not to say, well, you band guys always got this, or you you've got to come together and it's gotta be a unified one because if the people making decisions can get the vocal against the instrumental, against the general music, and divide you, they can just sit back and watch it all. But if they're all united together, they're gonna be so much more powerful, and they might get closer as a result and realize they're not as different as they may seem, and it could be a really good thing for the kids too.
SPEAKER_03Great. See, there's a difference between knowledge and wisdom. And right there is wisdom, people. Write that down. John Green, great to to reconnect and just uh get to chat. You are uh fantastic. You are I knew your dad. I knew your dad you knew my dad. Yeah, when I taught in Ellsworth, yeah.
SPEAKER_05John, what was your what was your first gig out of the gate? Was it middle school or was it high school?
SPEAKER_01Um Manswonk Lincoln, uh assistant band director.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01So it was a large high school with a an amazing head guy, Dean Turkleson, who taught me so much.
SPEAKER_05John, you must feel that your time spent in small town teaching in probably helped when you were sort of in a large suburban, you know, uh kind of bigger city kind of environment.
SPEAKER_01It did. Yeah. Um, but I wasn't really a small town guy. And I'll tell you why. I was born in Chicago. We moved to Wisconsin when I was six, because Wisconsin was beautiful, and we lived on the south side of Chicago. That's not an exaggeration, that's where we live. And um even though the environment of where I went to school and grew up had a big effect on me, I don't think it had as big effect as having two parents who were born and raised in Chicago did. Because I always thought there had to be something else.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, something more.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. And not a good or bad thing. I loved heck, I got to do everything in high school. Um, you know, I played football, I was a basketball player, I was a golfer, I was in the plays, I was in band. I mean, you know, I would never have gotten to do that in some of the places I've taught. Um, but having parents that were city folks gave me kind of some balance there.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Man, every time you speak, I learn something. It's crazy. I know.
SPEAKER_05I want to keep John up for the next hour.
SPEAKER_02No. And the cool thing is when he's in a room, he always gets the other people to start speaking. They don't realize how much he's moving them. You're just absolutely amazing. And um it's you're a gift to the our community and anybody that is lucky enough to ask you, and you can go to their room. I don't know why everybody's not calling. It's probably because they don't have your number. But if they do, they should be calling.
SPEAKER_05You uh I just also have to I have to thank John because so many of the great students that I've taught in my career um at Eau Claire have been former students of John's. Uh and they are they all are marvelous players, wonderful individuals, and now many of them are great teachers in their own right. Um and uh every one of them just uh can't say enough good things about you, John Green.
SPEAKER_01Well, I appreciate that. I mean, it's it's was the right choice. I mean, it's been it's been a fun career.
SPEAKER_03That guy. Yeah. That guy. Yeah, it's a get.
SPEAKER_02And it was a good get. Last job, Peter. I mean, we just spent what, 15 minutes? He he's telling not only just stories, but we're laughing, and everything that comes out of his mouth is like you could spend a week just thinking about that phrase and how truthful it is. And it's just love that guy.
SPEAKER_05Super job, Peter. I'm embarrassed that I didn't think to get him on here sooner. Yeah, well, I'm better than you are, but that's okay. That was a good one. There's that Peter Hobberman humility that I've been craving all weekend. Unlike John Green.
SPEAKER_02Unlike John Green. Oh man. But think about all the amazing. I mean, just start with music educators that came out of his 196 middle school. You know, and he taught with just some amazing teachers. And uh everybody's better for spending time with John.
SPEAKER_03Well, and so much history connected to so many people and so many places. I mean, that's the Kevin Bacon thing again, too. You can't.
SPEAKER_02But you know, he'd never been in a jazz band. I mean, he's such a quick study, never been in a jazz band, third drummer in jazz three at stout at Stevens Point. Um, but has his great programs, connects with Fred, right? He's going off to things in the summer to learn to be a better conductor at Northwestern. Like he's a lifelong learner, and he's just soaking up the room and not just what people say, he's reading people in the room. And I mean, I think that's why everybody connects so well with him. Is he's already, I mean, I don't want to say manipulated, that's it has a name, but he's already understands how he needs to say it so you'll get it. You know what I mean? He's just such a yeah, a guru. Just such a guru. Anyway.
SPEAKER_03There's the XL. Good. All right, nice job, though. Um, hey, we have a boozler. Bamboozler. Bamboozler. Uh this is a beginning of the year band boozler. Uh it says the letter is Dear Artless, which I think is really profound. Actually, it started that way. I've got a question for you, uh, the hosts. In those early days of rehearsing a new piece, what do you start with? Notes or rhythms? I mean, do you focus on first getting the right pitches in the right places, or do you establish the rhythmic foundation before worrying too much about whether everyone's on the correct notes? And of course, I'm fully prepared for you all to disagree with each other. I love that idea.
SPEAKER_02I'm not starting. Who wants to start? Christopher, how about you? What do you do in the street?
SPEAKER_03Of course, you never start. Come on. That's right. I asked, I answered the questions. I would say that there are a number of charts and people that would say rhythm. Um, and I know that's difficult, especially for especially for me. I would say, well, it's it's tough because I want kind of, I'm greedy. I want it all. The thing I would say is this though. What I've learned through teaching is I when I first started, I would just play a recording and then I'd just say start at the top, and we'd just collapse and fall apart. Later in the years, I got more strategic with it, where I would pull the melody out and have everyone learn the melody. Absolutely. And in a way, uh well, right, and getting kids to actually uh argue, well, not purposely argue, but to really make value judgments about how the melody was created, where they think the peak is. Like we're already shaping and making music out of this long before we sight read the piece. So in that essence, I guess we're kind of doing both, but I guess I would say rhythm if I had to be pinned down.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's the only time that the Tremon players will play the melody.
SPEAKER_02If I was a if I was back teaching in younger, I would have, I would make my own lead sheet with melodies, the the rhythms that everybody should be ready to play. I don't care what part they're in. It's a great way to warm up. Uh, the bigger meta for me is before I answer that question, nobody should see something in the music for the first time that they don't already know. You shouldn't see notes that you haven't seen before, you shouldn't see rhythms you don't already understand, you shouldn't see articulations or anything. Otherwise, you're asking them to decode instead of create. Decode instead of create. And I just that's such a huge thing that if you're setting your kids up by like putting something in front of them that they haven't seen before and they don't understand the key signature or they don't understand the rhythms, you it that's over. And the other thing is like Chris said, I I used to start at the beginning and now I don't. The younger the group, the more we start where everybody's playing whatever, measure 21, and we all go through maybe it's eight or sixteen bars together, and we get the style and the feel. I do think rhythm is more important than the right notes. Because you can get wrong notes with the right rhythm and go back and fix it. But if you're all playing at the wrong time with the right notes, it's sounds like sure. Sorry, I got on my hobby horse because I got my young conductors starting our third concert band, and they just wanna, you know, and as you get older, you can start at the beginning, right? My college kids and even our third band can start at the beginning and go to the end. And then we go back and work in sections where we all play because they're mature enough to get the context.
SPEAKER_05My issue with it isn't it is about rhythm, but it's how we approach rhythm that is the problem for me. And that yes, you could clap the rhythm, you could say it, you could play it on one note. There's all these great ways of doing it, but that has still not uh to date for me in the last 20 years solved the problem. And so for me, the true grasp on why the piece is hard rhythmically comes from when you ask them to either say or play the rhythm on one note while tapping their foot, or say or play it play the rhythm while conducting in 4-4. And then they realize just yeah, the concept of how a steady pulse relates to the rhythm is really the crux issue. It's not that the rhythm is too hard, because anybody can sort of you can parrot back a rhythm. I think anybody can fake it, fake it through the rhythm, but can't can you feel it, feel the pulse in your body somewhere, and also feel that rhythm that's inside the music.
SPEAKER_02I mean, in a big man, you'd say if you could feel the time or play in the pocket or in the groove, but even uh if we're I just said this on Friday, I was like, you need to create time with your fingers and tongue with how you're playing. You're so in the pulse that you're creating time on each 16th note, not just on the down beats and smooshy smushy. That's good.
SPEAKER_03I like that. Um, commuter, wherever you are right now, I want you to respond to uh this podcast uh if you agree with this. And that is how many of you who uh teach middle school or who have seen said middle school marching band have seen a percussionist playing directly on the pulse, but marching completely off the pulse. Oh God.
SPEAKER_07Oh god.
SPEAKER_03It's the best. I they're just wandering. They're not marching, they're wandering. They're playing so complex. Like I think kids like they're marching in 3-8 and they're playing the perfect. I'm like, how are you doing this? How is it possible?
SPEAKER_02It's just not in their body, yeah. Right? I got a hot take. I think we should bring back sight reading at festival. That's a hot take. I mean, the reason I think that is we're too much.
SPEAKER_05You know what I would like to is I'd like Peter to judge it every time it happens in every festival everywhere. I think most festivals they asked.
SPEAKER_03If that's what it takes, I would do it. If that's what it takes, I would do it. Most often we're sight reading at festivals. Even though we had been rehearsing for three months, it was still sight reading.
SPEAKER_02I just I just think right now, talking about cleaning with John Green, we're what gets the score is the clean, not creating musicians. And I think we should be creating musicians.
SPEAKER_05Man, when he started talking about how much he loves re rehearsal, man, I was just like, that's my guy right there. You know, he likes the journey. He's all in for the journey. Love it.
SPEAKER_02He's all in on the people. It's about the people and the growth. He's just God, he's a better human than we are.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Uh, gentlemen, the only way you get out of this podcast tonight is another exit ticket. That's right. Tell me one thing that you learned from John Green that you're taking with you. Well, some of the best things he said, we weren't recording what he said. I'm gonna take those. I've got one. I've got one. One is middle school kids don't care what's on TV. They're only concerned about what else is on TV. That was one where it was that while we were recording, though.
SPEAKER_02Did he say middle school kids don't do Schoenberg? Was that no? No, no, they do Sternberg. Without trying. That's the best Schoenberg there is. Or Ives, I guess, probably, to be honest.
SPEAKER_05Oh, Peter, your exit ticket sucks.
SPEAKER_03Beyond Artless is sponsored by Beyond the Notes Music Festival. Our mission is to create and provide profound learning and social experiences through music that go beyond the notes. Visit BTN MusicFestival dot com to learn more.
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