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beyond ArtLess
“Beyond ArtLess" with Chris Gleason, Peter Haberman & Phil Ostrander is a podcast that explores the friendships and the community that exists in and outside of the arts and arts education. In each episode of Beyond ArtLess, one of the hosts reveals his mystery guest to the other two. What comes next is a fun-filled conversation revealing the joy of friendship and the artlessness of the hosts. Unlike most successful classrooms, this show is not well planned and probably not worth your time.
beyond ArtLess
Lisa Linde
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Finally, we have a guest that brings some no nonsense Boston sensibility to our upper Midwest goofball hosts. Lisa Linde is long time music teaching wizard at Newton South High School in Massachusetts. Her ensembles have won numerous awards and jazz ensemble has performed several times at Essentially Ellington. She is also founder of jazzhers - a non profit founded to address the persistent gender disparity in jazz education and performance.
Our hosts struggle through meaningless banter, aimless questions and a speed round that seems anything but speedy. Thankfully, there’s only about 30 more episodes this season left. Send any complaints directly to the coach - Tim Gleason.
Learn More Here:
- https://www.jazzhers.com/home
- https://nafme.org/member-profile/lisa-linde/
- https://downbeat.com/news/detail/lisa-linde-downbeat-honor-for-achievement-in-jazz-education
- https://www.midwestclinic.org/jazzprecon.html
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Hey commuter. You know, folks are understandably worried about the emergence of AI in just about every aspect of society. But rest assured, there is no AI enhancement, algorithm, or advanced machine learning model that could possibly make this podcast any better. So sit back and relax because this episode is 100% human-made. And unfortunately, it shows.
SPEAKER_03No, can't tell. What's what's in it? If all those things aren't in it, what what's there?
SPEAKER_05Um nonfat Greek yogurt, almond flour, and desert sand. Desert desert sand.
SPEAKER_04That's nice. Sing for us, please. Imagine.
SPEAKER_05Imagine having like a McDonald's breakfast biscuit with nothing on it, but much, much drier.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03First, first rehearsal symphony van, all the new students go around, share, you know, their name, their major, and a unique fact. Of course, first tuba player chooses to share. Well, yeah, once I ate a handful of sand.
SPEAKER_02What?
SPEAKER_03That was his tuba fact. That was his fun fact. It's good. Thank you, Carter. I mean, he's living up. I'm uh outing him too. I'm I'm naming names. Carter. Yeah. That was Carter's really off to the races here. Good job, Carter. Keep it up, buddy. But it sounds like you and Carter have been uh sharing uh meals.
SPEAKER_05You sound good. I'm sorry. I know I'm I'm gonna mute myself here. I gotta like let this go.
SPEAKER_03Of course. I have been waiting. Chris and I have been waiting for this. This has been a long time seasons upon seasons. I mean long right now. Look at him. Oh God. Oh, this is beautiful. But he's also, um, listener, commuter, uh Peter looks like he's ready for a gig. I mean, he's got his fancy conductor shirt on. Yeah. I'm not sure. Are you expected to wear formal attire at dinner?
SPEAKER_05Yes. Especially when they make homemade, gluten-free, egless uh sand pancakes. Sandburger, ham, sandwich burger. Anyway. It's better than the meal I made, so I should shut up. Let's just put it that way. Yeah, probably.
SPEAKER_04Oh well. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Um gentlemen, I've been doing some research, and here's what I've come up with, okay? Uh uh two things really for you too.
SPEAKER_05That background is so annoying because your head is like wobbly and it looks like junk.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Can you explain what the background is for the uh commuter?
SPEAKER_03Who can't beyond artless like photo picture thing that's on the whenever whenever I see the t-shirt with our with our face on it, I just instinctively shiver and sort of back away while something comes up. Yeah. Oh, oh, that's the end of Chris. Well, at least we're still recording. Okay, maybe I'll start your sign? Seriously, did you have a gig? Because you look like you have a gig.
SPEAKER_05No, um, I got jeans on under this. It's just uh I I wore this shirt today because I was late to school. Eric and I were talking since quarter to six, and I'm like, oh my god, I gotta go teach at eight. I gotta get out of here. It's already seven o'clock. Like, and I just threw on the first thing I knew was clean and smelled good. Um is that okay for me to say? Well, thanks.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Uh I did have a moment. Today was, of course, the first day of Brack Brass Tech, and I thought of Jen Hawkinson, and there were the sounds of learning. The sounds of learning. The sounds you hear Jen say that you can't unhear that state great. Man, the whole time I was listening to them just being like, oh boy, are you learning.
SPEAKER_05Our first double read day, the oboe bassoon sound, it's it's spectacular.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that could be worse than first day of Brass Tech. Definitely.
SPEAKER_05And Kelly Trace, who subs in the Minnesota Orchestra, she teaches that unit and she opens all the doors on purpose so that it just goes down the professor's hallway. It's a special day. That's pretty good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Started uh two brand new clarinet players today and a uh flock of flute players. I gotta say, it brings you back to reality. You just go work with some fifth graders who have never opened the case before, and it's like, yeah, there's no tired like teaching tired. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Oh, there's nothing like teaching tired. There's no teaching tired.
SPEAKER_03Like first couple weeks in September, teaching tired. Oh, just just mmm.
SPEAKER_04And when a hundred students show up and then yeah, then people walk new students into the classroom unannounced and say, Hey, this child's gonna join band two. It's like, oh, no problem. Come in, children. We'll find you something to play.
SPEAKER_05Better than the alternative.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no.
SPEAKER_05First food problems.
SPEAKER_04That's exactly right. Hey, uh back to my deep thinking. Okay, two things. One, this is not show friends, this is show business. Just keep that in mind.
SPEAKER_05Now you're a businessman. Let's see our ledger. Let's look at the books, Mr. Budget Boy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's not good. And then the other part was this. Speaking of the books, the bottom line, people have been asking, how can I support this show? That's not true. No one's asked. But if you're looking to support the show, you just go simply go to the show notes, and there is a button that says support the show. And here's the thing, though. Again, I've been giving this a lot of thought. And that is the thing is if you want to prolong, then you should support the show. I mean, think about it. This is actually potentially making someone else's life a little bit.
SPEAKER_03I have no idea what he's talking about. It's a really confusing concept.
SPEAKER_04It's it's another level. It's a level in a level.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, seven beginning flute players did their job today on you. You don't know what you're doing.
SPEAKER_04Inside the donuthole. Deep thinking.
SPEAKER_03Um so we're gonna pivot to someone who does know what they're talking about. That's our guest. Thank God. It's not our uh our guest, I believe our guest started on flute, uh, but migrated to the really the proper instrument, which is trombone. Uh thank goodness. Uh so I think our guest is a firm believer in back row shenanigans. Um our show is an avid golfer who once won the e-flight in a national amateur golf competition. Our guest uh collects ingredients for craft projects, but really never gets around to finishing said crafts. Um that sounds like a good topic, you know, ripe for discussion. Um our guest um has uh been a longtime award-winning instrumental music educator in Massachusetts. And this may be our first um mystery guest from Massachusetts.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think any guest from Massachusetts, yeah.
SPEAKER_03No, we're big in Massachusetts. People love us there. Oh, okay, cool then. Um uh our guest leads uh uh bands and and on jazz ensembles at Newton South High School in Massachusetts and has had groups that um have consistently done well on all sorts of festivals, including prestigious ones like the Charles Mingus Festival and the Essentially Ellington High School Jazz Festival. Our guest is super passionate about equality in jazz and is the founder of a nonprofit group called Jazz Hers. Uh, our guest has received all kinds of accolades. 2018 Teacher of the Year at Newton South High School, 22 Hall of Fame uh Award, regionally, 2023 National Federation of State High Schools, Outstanding Music Educator Award for Massachusetts, was a Grammy quarter finalist at 2023 and 2024, uh, 2025 John Laporta Jazz Educator of the Year that was awarded the last gen conference in 2025. Uh High School Big Band has won the Downbeat Award for Large Jazz Ensemble 2025 as well. This is a heavyweight. What is this for series? I we're gonna it's gonna be a short episode.
SPEAKER_04We're gonna say connected.
SPEAKER_03Sorry, Tonette's better things to do. Um our guest has degrees from UMass, Amherst, and has a master's in music uh with Frank Battiste at New England Conservatory. Um uh and I'm just gonna introduce our guest because I just uh think uh she is the greatest ever. This is Lisa Lisa Lindy.
SPEAKER_02Oh Lisa Lindy, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Hey everybody.
SPEAKER_05How do you have the unfortunate um experience of knowing Phil Ostrander?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's what we were we were checking in a few minutes ago before the show. Uh we were at NEC at the same time. And I was doing wind ensemble conducting, and he was playing the trombone quite well. So we go way back. Excellent, excellent.
SPEAKER_05I'm so sorry about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Beautiful. Congratulations. You are quite the heavyweight. That's wonderful, very cool. At least there's one of us on here who can teach. Um what? Yeah, you know, so you worked on your wind conducting degree with Frank, and uh you're heavy into jazz. Tell me more about all that. Like, how did that all work?
SPEAKER_01I know. I mean, it's funny, and I think a lot about you know, the couple of band directors that you say are listening. You know what I mean? And all the people out there. I I'm just jumping right in with the humor. I hope that's okay.
SPEAKER_04No, this is it's all we got.
SPEAKER_01No, but I mean we we kind of come from it, like, you know, I was educated. I had a great upbringing um in high school. I was in the jazz band, I played in the jazz band in undergrad. Um, yet somehow I come out of all that not really improvising well. Um, because people just kept saying, it's a scale, here's a blue scale, you know, here's a Dorian scale to play over a two chord. Um, it's so much more than that. But, you know, back in the day, you know, the Jamie Abersold records were great and they were helpful. But I think we have a huge generation of people that, you know, grew up playing in jazz bands, never figured out the improv part. And so that was me um going back to grad school and thinking, you know, I'm a band director. I had taught for about four years and went back to grad school. I knew Frank Batisti would be retiring soon. So I thought I gotta get in there. Um, he's kind of a legend, and did a whole win band conducting degree at New England Conservatory, which was so cool. And like Phil, I don't know if we've probably never talked about this, but it wasn't just win band music that we conducted in the studio. We conducted at least half of it was orchestral. Um, and so when we had the conducting classes, we were conducting the NEC students, you know. I I forget if it was a weekly class or how it worked, because it was a while ago, but getting in there and just conducting amazing musicians and learning orchestral literature, wind band literature, chamber literature, just like an incredible experience. Um, so I think I went into my Newton South job thinking that's it. I'm gonna be near Boston. I'm gonna and I feel like I did even my first year there, I probably did like a Mozart um one of the small ensembles.
SPEAKER_05C minor.
SPEAKER_01Like an it might be like the octet, but I feel like there's a bigger one that maybe has 12 people on a blanket. Oh yeah, the Grand Partita. Grand Partita. So I I was just like out of control. I I was gonna do Shravinsky octet the second year, I'm sure, with my high school kids. Um but I always had love jazz. So over time there, that love I created some jazz improv classes to get kids improvising and then also trying to teach myself what I hadn't figured out along the way. And so, you know, somehow 20 years go by and I'm suddenly winning all of these awards as a jazz educator and tell but telling people that my master's was in win ensemble conducting.
SPEAKER_04I love that. I I think that's super fascinating, not in that you were able to achieve that, the the concept of approaching it as kind of a visitor, like someone who, you know, uh some it seems like it comes naturally. I know everyone has to work at it, but you coming at it with curiosity, do you feel like you approached it that way? And did that kind of frame of mind help you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I mean it I like how you say visitor because I think people would come in if you people, you know, who already knew how to improvise would come in kind of at this one spot, and it was like, you know, I think we need to break it down 10 more ways to really get everything to resonate. Um and even just the word jazz language, you know, you'll there's a lot of high school band directors, you know, we all know how to teach that stuff. We take our bands to the festival and they the ensemble sounds great, the improv's kind of weak, and then the adjudicators will say, like, you've got to work on jazz language. And what is jazz language? What I listened to jazz my whole life and I'm like, I don't know if I know what that meant for a long time, you know. So trying to figure out like is that kind of like you say, the visitor or someone who I didn't know if I was even visiting? Maybe I was still trying to find it myself, but yeah, really trying to solve that mystery for myself at the same time as the students, really.
SPEAKER_04I love it. So, what what would you say to other visitors who I don't know, maybe play tuba, can't swing their way out of a wet paper bag? What are what are just like what are two or three things that you would, you know, especially with folks going back to school right now and probably just starting up their jazz programs and so on, what are some things that they should do that will would help?
SPEAKER_01Do a lot more playing by ear. Um I mean, we teach in a Western European kind of mindset. All of us do. We were all brought up that way. Here's a piece of paper, you're reading it from left to right, you're counting, it's mathematical. Um, and then at the end, hopefully we can make it musical. Um there's a band director from Memphis, Ollie Lydell, who I met through the Essentially Ellington program. And so he had been in the festival. I heard his band, they sounded amazing. And then a year later, his band was playing at the gen conference. And I saw him, I said, Hey, I can't wait to see your band. He's like, Oh man, all my seniors graduated, such a young group. There's, you know, we're really working though, but it's a young group. And I mean, I went and saw the band, and they were like, you know, the alto player was so tiny, looked like he was holding a tenor saxophone. But they could swing when they I mean, they were young and young sounds, but they could swing in a way that I was like, I feel like in the Northeast, the last thing we do is talk about the groove. But from Memphis, they still was trying to figure out how to play their instruments. I'm exaggerating a little bit, you know, they knew how to play their instruments, but it clear that the groove was something deeply embedded in every element and not like that last layer the way we might layer on the dynamics, you know, if you're doing a piece in concert band. Okay, now let's look at the dynamics. Like the concept of swing is something more deeply ingrained in every aspect, so it's less looking at your music, it's less, you know, kind of that being in your own silo, you know, and and all of this stuff works for concert band too. So I tell the kids all the time. Um, we talked about the the back row and having fun, you know, as low rouse in the back row. Um, you know, and I tell my students all the time, I played flute, it was I was awful. I didn't like it. I didn't like sitting that close to the band director. You go to the back, we all have fun, but there's a code, right? And the code is never get caught.
SPEAKER_05Is there that's that's right. That is the code.
SPEAKER_02That's really the only code.
SPEAKER_01Who knows what else is going on?
SPEAKER_05It's like there's no code back there.
SPEAKER_01No, it's but we just don't let the people in the front know. And I told I was teaching at a summer camp this summer at the University of New Hampshire, and I was telling the kids, I was really trying to get them to like think about each other. And like, we know this as pros, but if you're reading a new piece, you're in that rehearsal, you're only gonna have two rehearsals, one rehearsal before you do things, like you're cueing each other physically, you're helping, you're doing all these things, but like, you know, kids, they've been in their math class, they're told they can't share the answers, they get to band and they're just staring straight ahead and they won't look at the neighbor and and they try to keep it a secret if they're gonna come in or not, and then nobody comes in or everybody comes in wrong. And so I told the whole band, I said, you know, we're in the low grass, we never get in trouble. And that is the code. And I said, Do you want to know why we never get in trouble? And they were like, Why? Like, I would love to know. And I said, Because we always assign a lookout, and the kids were like, You do? And I'm thinking, well, not really, but you know, so they're looking around, like, okay, so we need a lookout in the section, we can have fun, but the lookout also is like counting the rests, you know, and helping each other.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I love that. So Lisa, I have a I have a question for you. What I've noticed in what you were just talking about at the gen conference with that group from Memphis is the rhythm section is really helping establish a groove. And the biggest thing I notice when I go to festivals, or I'm judging, is a lot of band directors know what to say to win players, but they have no clue what to say to a drummer, more or less to guitarist or a bassist. Um where do you learn that? How do you go? I mean, I know the sound, a lot of them know the sound they want, but they have no idea what to say. How did you learn that? What would you suggest to younger teachers about learning the rhythm section and how to coach the teacher?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, and I listened to it. I played an ensemble, so I would walk in and I could sing maybe what I wanted the drummer to do, but I'm like, I'm not even sure what drums those are. Like, I'll just sing this thing. Hopefully you can figure it out. Um, so it took a for me, it took a long time, you know, definitely going to talking to friends, going to professional development. But um, like if I had to say it right now, I think it took a long time for me to figure out, you know, the way we talk about playing in tune and being a unison with our wins. That's what we need to talk about with our rhythm section, but it's time. Yeah, it's time. So, and it's even as a younger band director, I would record my jazz ensemble and then I'd listen and I'm like, bass and drums aren't even together. They're not even together, but you get so distracted with all the other problems. They were kind of close and you didn't think about it a lot, and it's not till you step out. So it it's really it stems from bass and drums. Turn your bass players down. I was just talking to somebody about this today. You know, like the bottom 30 to 40 percent. If you're at a festival, the ones that are really struggling is their bass is too loud, and you can't hear anything else because the drums is gonna match that because they can, and because it feels good, and now the trombones, you know what we're gonna do, right? We're gonna match it too. And the next thing the whole Saxes probably can't hear anything, you know. So turning down the basement.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, the jazz band, but we don't know to have a lookup telling each other how much better they are, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Than everybody else, right?
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, so I would say just getting like when I finally realized this is like the full band unison, how much you need to say no, they're still a little out-of-tune B or you're not quite together. Um so I built that like my program now, my students, the bass player and the drummer, they're arguing with each other, like you're rushing, no, you're dragging. And I'm like, guys, like then we can start to talk about how music can breathe and how like if you're changing by two metronome markings, that's okay. You just need to be together. So it's kind of like that journey of the pendulum swinging, you know, you're not together at all, and now we're arguing over this tiny little difference.
SPEAKER_03Lisa, how did you was it sort of automatic that students wanted to be part of your jazz band, or did it take a while for it to catch fire?
SPEAKER_01Almost like both at the same time. Uh, you know, like I think the music can be powerful, fun, and different. Um, but it uh can also sometimes sound not so good when it's a younger group. Um and it's interesting too. I think for a long time I was really excited just even who wanted to show up in my classroom. Jazz bands were usually mostly boys growing up. I don't know why that was. I joined it, I loved it. I loved all the guys in the jazz band. I had a great time. I'm like, who wouldn't want to hang out with these people? Um, but you know, and then I was teaching for a long time, I was really proud. Of myself, like look, I have all boys, just like all of my mentors. I've done it, and I get along with boys, I relate to boys, I have accomplished what I set out to do, and it never occurred to me why aren't girls joining your jazz band? Like, I mean, it has since, right? But even as a woman for a long time, I was like replicating whatever that system is that gives us what we see, you know. Um, and I I know my fan director guy friends, if here I am, I'm a woman, I don't magically have girls. This isn't something that men are doing wrong, right? It's deeper, it's bigger. I don't even know what it is myself.
SPEAKER_05And yet, and yet, what are some things you've done that have helped? Is any have you done anything to help that?
SPEAKER_01No. You know what I mean? I just had a jazz fan of one or two girls. Um, and so it was when I got into Essentially Ellington in 2018, and it was the same year I got into the Charles Mingus Festival. And I'm usually if I go to Berkeley or if I go to the Massachusetts Jazz Festivals, oftentimes I'm the only woman. I'm oftentimes like in a trombone section, the only woman on the golf course, the only woman. So it not a big deal, but when I got to those national festivals, I was a little bit like yikes, okay, how many came before me? And so with the Mingus festival I could find, um, Sarah Klein out in Berkeley, California, had been there. And I didn't, I might have been the second woman, not sure. And then once I knew that, I just didn't even want to look for Essentially Ellington. I was like, I just actually need to get on and off the stage without crumbling myself and like same thing for the kids. Um, and so the CFO of Jazz at Lincoln Center at the end of the performance, she came and found me and she had tears in her eyes crying, and she said, You are making history this weekend because there were two women early on in the essentially Ellington days, but there's been an 18-year stretch where there have been no women band directors, and since we built Jazz at Lincoln Center, you're the first woman to do the finals on this stage.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so that's when I that it was just that whole weekend was a smack in the face to me to look, and I only had two girls in my jazz band. And I just had to sit back and think, like, what is happening in the world? And so during the QA, one of the girls in the audience said, You get to ask Went Marcellus questions at this thing, which is amazing. And she said, I don't see myself represented in the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra. You know, can you guide me? Who should I listen to? What should I do? And I just I was so excited to hear his answer. And then in the moment, you know, it fell a little short. I he didn't just solve it. It's Winton Marcellus. I just thought he would say, Here's what you do. You know? And and I left and I'm like, I I can't believe he didn't just give us the answer to that. Um, and I've gone back and re-watched the video. At one point, it it he was kind of like, Who should I fire? And I think he does say something like that in the video, but it was not the way I didn't, you know, I experienced it one way, and when I went back later, I was like, Okay, no, no, no. What he was saying was very deep. But I did remember that he said something to the effect of, you know, if you're in a circumstance that doesn't seem to include you, whoever you are and whatever that circumstance is, put yourself in there. And I just felt like I think Winton's talking to me right now. And so I went home, and that was May. And by November I started the first Jazz Hers event. I just I knew I needed to do something. I knew I was part of this community. I didn't know what the answer was, but I just knew if anybody's gonna fix it, I think I I think that should probably be me.
SPEAKER_05Good for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I love that. And I'm looking at the website right now. It is this fantastic. It is so good. How has this grown?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think Lisa, you could you could do a few more things with it, maybe like another 19, 20, 50 events. Is there a way that we can grow it a little more?
SPEAKER_01I would just say, like, you're so nice to be able to do it.
SPEAKER_03Can you organize it all by yourself? Do all of it by yourself, please.
SPEAKER_01Because like that website, it's like, can I put every idea I have out onto the internet? And like literally, there are more ideas. Like that, I should probably cut it in half. Um it's it's a little crazy. But I have more ideas. I have more ideas, and so one of my biggest frustrations is just like trying to pace myself and take my time. Um, you know, because we're trying to do one-day events. Um, there's something similar called Jazz Girls Day, which is something across the country that was started really grassroots, I think, on the West Coast. Um, you know, a four-hour clinic gets girls together and, you know, just kind of show them some jazz. Um, and that's great. We do we try to do those around the state of Massachusetts. We're expanding this year to a little bit like Vermont and Connecticut, like New England, I would say. But um, I've been really experimenting with what else might work. Um, we do a no audition honor band because a lot of times there's I have a I should actually post it on the website, but I I have a graph of self-efficacy kind of from kindergarten through senior year of high school. And kids start out in kindergarten relatively the same. And then in fourth grade, fifth grade, they start to dip and we go through that middle school slump, and girls take a bigger, much bigger dive than boys, and and it's only you know, girls and boys is kind of who they studied. Um, and then as we come up towards senior year, boys are making a nice recovery, and girls are still way down low. So self-efficacy means I think I could do this. And so the no audition honor band, the band director will tell the student you are ready. So they don't have to decide for themselves. Um, it gives their band director a chance to say, I appreciate you and I believe in you. And so that's been a successful model. Um, we have commissioning music. I've been trying to mentor younger women educators. I've been taking um women and non-binary people to the Mingus Festival as often as I can just to meet the other band directors to hear what's going on backstage, like all those little things when you're new and they seem so far away. Like, how do we really start to bring this together?
SPEAKER_05I mean, just you making an environment that feels welcoming to no matter what your gender is, and also dropping that barrier of, oh, I have to audition for this. Yeah, it's just our uh Phil, I think we were sitting together when the All-State Jazz Band played this year. There were no women on stage. No girls. I think last year the All-State Jazz Band had one female.
SPEAKER_01And a lot of times it's Barry Sachs. If like now that I say it over the years, you might notice like very often there's one girl and she's playing Barry Sacks. Why is that? You know, she was a little bit shy getting in there playing the outdoor the tenor, and the band director needed somebody and went and found this. Yep, you know, switcher, yeah. Then like that was kind of my band director. Like, we need more trombones. I was like, I'll do that. Um yeah, it's not you're not usually seeing like the girl come in and play lead trumpet. Sometimes, probably, but um yeah, so even some of those leadership roles, like it's great, like if we say girls are included, but are they in those powerful positions sprinkled randomly as well? Um, yeah, and then the goal of Jazzers at the end of the day is to mix back together. So we're trying. My big push this year is to change the world with jam sessions. So we're gonna try to do jam sessions all over the state of Massachusetts, really teach kids how to do it. We're gonna have a house ban that pays kids. So it's like a job. Like you can make a little bit of money if you're a musician. Who knew? Um, so we'll pay the older kids, boys and girls, non-binary students, everybody, right? We all come together and then jam sessions where we're it's a little bit more beginner-friendly. We'll teach you how to do it. We'll give you like five tunes we guarantee you can play, you know, so you can study one of those and come up and just know that one tune. And then, you know, open to, you know, of course, bringing in women composers, Alice Coltrane, you know what I mean, Lil Hard and Armstrong, like some of that kind of stuff. But also, like if students want to bring video game music and really make it kind of like present day and improvise over that, I'm all for that as well.
SPEAKER_03Awesome. Wow. It's it's uh you what you're describing. I mean, I was thinking about my own daughter who I I you know, I c it it's not a fair parallel, but uh in the first town that where she grew up, there was no girls' hockey team. She didn't want to touch the ice or skate or pick up a stick or go anywhere near it. And then we moved to a place where there was a girls' hockey team, all in. All she wanted to do all day long without ever ceasing. Um, because it was really easy to visualize herself in a you know fun activity that was competitive, lots of people part of it, all types went all in, you know.
SPEAKER_01And it's hard to be the only one. Oh, so all of us can experience that some way, right? Probably. Of course. That I was the only something in a space, and that just is always hard, you know. So it this it's not, you know, it c these days, like this things can get polarized, right? But like really it's it's complicated, but it's also very simple. Like we just want to feel like we belong.
SPEAKER_04I feel that a lot when I go to meetings. I'm like, I'm the only idiot on here. Everyone else is smart and why am I the only one taking notes? Last of mystery in Creon. Um and now a message from our sponsors. Anyone can sell you an instrument. A true music partner helps you build something bigger. At Hyde Music, they support the educators, families, performers, and advocates who keep music thriving. For nearly 80 years, their family-owned, musician-operated team has provided instruments, rentals, repairs, educational resources, and creative solutions with personal service every step of the way. Expect more than a transaction. Expect a partner. Learn more at hivemusic.com or visit Hive Music in Appleton, Green Bay, Madison, Oshkot, and Stevens Point. Grand Tours Incorporated is a trusted leader in designing custom international group concert tours for student and adult music ensembles, setting the standard for traveling with purpose.
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SPEAKER_04Fantastic. Like you've got dates down, you've got all these uh professionals coming in. I mean Tia Fuller.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that's that's the other piece, is like it's a gig for women. I I have had women like say, Oh, I'll do it for a discount, but it was Tia Fuller who she named her price, and I had to make the price, and I was kind of like, I have no money. But it it taught me this lesson, like, but isn't she worth it? And don't women already make 80 cents on the dollar? And should I be helping that along by asking them to discount themselves? So we try to really pay like a good wage. Sarah Hannahan, Alexa Tarantino, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, heavies. Uh, this is a small aside, but it's really related, but even bigger than jazz. Um, just seeing yourself there. Um, our career counselors were whatever. They came over the music building to help our non-music ed students. Like, what do you do next, right? And they um they pretty much said, you know, I see a lot of men and women here. Here's the deal men will apply for anything, and people, you know, um that don't see themselves as a perfect candidate take themselves out of the game. And they said, just apply for something. If you think you could like it, the worst thing that's gonna happen is they're gonna offer you a job, and you say, No. You haven't let anybody down. That's your right. And um just put your name out there and go, if that sounds interesting, go get that. And it was amazing to watch people just like sat up and they were like, Oh yeah, I could do that. And they didn't even thought about it. Like, it's just this cultural concept of how they assume well only apply through the it just totally fits you and you know you want to do it. Because we're just chucking our stuff out there all the time. I mean, look at Chris, he's like working for the state. So I think that I think that's a big part of that, which is bigger than jazz, but it's also not only do you see yourself there, but sometimes you just have to encourage people to go for it, um, especially when they take themselves out of the game and they for whatever reason, gender or otherwise. And I think it's it's a really good thing for us to think as educators and parents. My daughter's the same way, you know. She she won't even audition for Allstate. Well, what if I do all that work and I don't get in and I don't see a lot of boys back there or girls back there in the percussion section? Like, well, there's some, and uh, she's like, Yeah, I'll just play the piano. Okay.
SPEAKER_02So yeah.
SPEAKER_05We skipped a lot over the beginning. Where did tell us more about your beginnings? Who are these mentors that started you on flute and then got you to the trombone and led you to NEC?
SPEAKER_01And it's funny, I found out at some point, I think it was when I was in college going back over flute, doing the tech classes in music ed, that I realized that my first flute teacher had been a saxophonist because I had the F sharp, all I had the alto saxophone F sharp. Never had. But yeah, I was the we had auditions at the end of eighth grade. I grew up in Foxboro, Massachusetts, um, which has a like it had a great jazz program itself, a great music program. Um and so you it was the 80s, so they would take your everybody's name in order and post it on a bulletin board. Right? And so I'm looking for my name, like under the flutes. I had taken the audition. My flute was broken at the time too. I was like, oh yeah, by the way, I can't play the second octave of these five scales because my flute, this key isn't working. And I'm sure the band director's like, okay. Um, who was it, Phil? Or what was it like we were learning, or what was that you started off with? Oh, sounds of learning learning. Sounds of learning. That was my audition for high school was this sound of learning. Um and so I second to last chair flute, and I was like, Well, I beat Vanessa at least, and I still remember her name. It was really Vanessa, and I went and found Vanessa later, and it turns out she had never taken an audition. I'm like, okay, so that means I was actually last chair flute.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, so I luckily switched to trombone, and I was never also I think that's something that last last chair flute can be a very successful Trombone section member. Very successful.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's kind of really what we led this section within a year, to be honest.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, didn't take a long time.
SPEAKER_01I went back to the back row, and I'm I was the only one who knew how to play 16th notes. I was like ready to go.
SPEAKER_03You're a rock star.
SPEAKER_01I could read.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Or you like your instrument.
SPEAKER_01But also, like, I did not like, and even thinking of jazz and the creativity involved in improvising, I did not like sitting there practicing 16th note runs on a flute. I was never gonna do that. I can remember my band director saying, Don't you think, you know, for the marching band, this two beats of 16th note runs. If you practice these, don't you think you could do it? And I was like, Yeah, I like I did not care. And I could have envisioned I would have just drifted away from band if I had stayed with flute. Um, but I switched to trombone that year and they dragged me into the second jazz band. And suddenly I was like, wait, we get to maybe take a few liberties here and there with what we're playing. I was like obsessed. I went home, I practiced that summer, my sophomore year. I just like suddenly I cared about getting better because I was interested in what that musical situation had to offer me. And drilling 16th notes or anything technical, that was that would never have done the same kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03What's drilling?
SPEAKER_05Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Trumbums.
SPEAKER_05I do love that idea though, that for each person there's something in music that is waiting for that spark, and we as an educator just have to find it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know?
SPEAKER_03Um of that. Lisa, um, this has happened to you, I don't know, probably every other day since you started teaching. Um, you're working either in jazz ensemble or one of your improvisation classes, and a kid, you it's the first day or whatever, and the kid looks at you and is like, I can't improvise. How do you deal with that? Like two or three ways of like dealing with that kid.
SPEAKER_01I tease them now. And I I say, You're well trombone player, baby. That's your help. But I say, I'm like, you're not what am I gonna do if you already know how to improvise? Like, I will take care of that piece. You just need to show up, you know. Well you'll learn everything else step by step. Um, and I don't improvise in any, like, we're in it right now. We started school last week. I don't do really any improvising in any of the improvising classes at all. I start with a lot of just can we listen to what a swing eighth note sounds like? Can we talk about what form is? And then can we start to just play in a collective? And you can start to make up rhythms in a rhythmic collective. I talk about, you know, this isn't from Western Europe, this is from West Africa, and it's a different way of thinking, and you get to get in there and connect to each other with the groove, with the pocket, with the how we line up the beats. Um, and that kind of takes the fear away because they're like, oh, I'm thinking of the rhythm, I'm making up some rhythms over here, and I'm just trying to make sure I lock in with the group. Suddenly I'm not alone, I'm together. Um, and then we eventually give a little bit more and a little bit more until we're kind of improving that.
SPEAKER_05That's a great way to ease them in.
SPEAKER_04I am just grinning from ear to ear. Uh so I taught in Sun Prairie for a long time, and so Steve Siam was uh colleague of mine.
SPEAKER_01He was my best friend, my first year EE when I was terrified. He was the guy, he was the best, right?
SPEAKER_04Brilliant educator. And I remember going on uh one of their I don't know, trips to EE a couple times, but I remember sitting right next to him and we were listening to other ensembles and so on, other groups, and I'm like, man, they sound fantastic, you know? And he's like, Yeah, but the groove, the groove, you know, like his ears could hear like exactly what you were saying. And over the years of teaching with them for 18 years, like just really trying to be curious and to actually hear, you know, like he was such a good mentor to me. How important is that role to find others that have come before us and to help us hear and listen and to to open those doors a little bit?
SPEAKER_01Uh like it's an essential part of the tradition, you know. And and that's the other thing I'll talk to my students about is jazz language, the groove. It's multi-generational learning. Um, and and that's what we lose a little bit in the public schools, right? Everybody's slotted into seventh grade band or whatever it is, but you know, that multi-generational learning, because they're like if you go to Mexico, if you go to Cuba, like it it's not like write me a grade three band piece or a two and a half. I can't we're not grade three yet. They're like, what is grade three? Like, what does that even mean? But to sit in a room, Victor Wooten talks a lot about this too, about growing up with a bunch of siblings who just like gave him a thing that looked like a bass at first and he could stand in the room with them, right? And then eventually maybe it has strings, but it wasn't plugged in, you know, and and you learn your role um from kind of being immersed over time, and you can participate kind of on these smaller levels, and over time you grow, but you're always kind of hearing that mature sound. So, yeah, it's the only way, honestly, mentoring because I we don't have in Newton, we don't really have middle school jazz bands. So I'm getting them in ninth grade. I d some days I'm like, I'm not sure how I'm getting into EE at all, but I I do. It's it's using mentors, you know what I mean? Because that kid that finally sounds like a lead alto, you know, my third year in Newton, every kid after that was kind of it roots back to trying to imitate the next kid imitated him. The kid after that imitated the kid, you know, and that is the tradition of jazz too, where you know, you're listening back to these people and you have your influences. Um, Mary Lou Williams was a famous pianist in New York City. Um, she wasn't maybe gigging, but she taught Charlie Parker, she taught Miles Davis, she taught all of these players. Um she was a mentor to them, even if she wasn't, you know. I think sometimes at that period in time, women should not be taking men's jobs. Men should earn the money, women were supposed to stay at home. It was less socially acceptable for women to have jobs, kind of period, and then to take that gig away from a musician. So we we miss a lot of those voices, but they were there. So the mentoring, you know, using that kind of thing is something you can use in your program to just really make up for a lot of things that you might be missing throughout.
SPEAKER_03Okay, uh time for a funny story. Like, funniest thing that's happened with your jazz band, either when you're like out on tour or in rehearsal, or some student that does not need to be named that did something that was like, oh my gosh. Um, right, it could be every day. I know that.
SPEAKER_01Oh geez. Well, I mean, I'll never forget, and of course, it was a trombonist um student had like a black belt test on the day of the state finals, and so told me about it and was gonna come straight from the black belt thing, but basically wasn't there when we got on stage, and I'm like, well, we just gotta kind of get on stage. So I'm starting to count off the first tune, and all of a sudden I hear like just an explosion from the back of the hall, and then like thud thud thud, and it's the student with his trombone case running through the audience to get on a stage to play with us, and I was like, Okay, nobody showed him the backstage, so it's all good. I almost had a heart attack too, because I was like, who is going to attack me on the stage right now? Um yeah, that was a good one.
SPEAKER_05This is a good one. Had he changed or was he still in his he was no, he was in a talks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he was not in his kind of he but he got the black belt. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Worth it. Um favorite student success story. I mean, somebody from Newton or anywhere, any student that you've worked with, and you're like, oh man, this person has gone on and done amazing things, whether it be music or not.
SPEAKER_01Oh, geez, I have like 27 of those. I mean, two that come to mind, um, trombonist who graduated, I'm gonna say like six or eight years ago, who's doing a lot of playing in New York right now, and just having a ballast. He's been, I think he was at Dizzy's last weekend playing a lot of Latin music, which he was obsessed. He used to come in singing in Spanish in the band room all the time, and it like makes sense now. Um but then it's also like I have a student who graduated about a year and a half ago, and I just he was like the nervous kid playing trumpet in the lab, the second jazz band. And I could hear, like, oh, this kid's got a good sound, and like, let's push him a little bit. You get it, we're giving you a solo. And by the time he was a senior, uh, he was a featured soloist on stage at New York City at the Essentially Ellington Festival, and like loving and just so into it. It's like one of those the those times, the trajectory that you can kind of see and you push and you feel like you know, you then send them out of the nest and they're doing great things.
SPEAKER_05Excellent. What are you listening to right now?
SPEAKER_01Um that's such a good question. Well, Rhonda, I should talk about Rhonda Smith because I told Phil somebody had posted a Prince video with this just amazing band, and as a woman, you know, caught my jazzers' eye, this woman crushing the bass, and I'm like, I have never seen this person before. Um, so I found out about Rhonda Smith, this killing bass player. Um who else am I listening to right now? Um, I was going through um oh geez, what's his name? The Autos player, Kenny Garrett. I was going through a Kenny Garrett obsession for a while. But then this summer, so speaking of like jazz language, I've been trying to transcribe a lot. And then as soon as you transcribe, oh, that's jazz language, like you start to see it where it is. You do a couple of solos, and then you're like, oh, it's starting to make sense. So I was transcribing this summer a lot of sunny stitch, yes.
SPEAKER_03It's where JJ stole all kinds of stuff. Okay, JJ stole a ton of sunny Betty Green the trombonist.
SPEAKER_01I did not know about him until about five years ago.
SPEAKER_03Oh, he's great.
SPEAKER_01Oh, like that was another, like, I just I was like this guy.
SPEAKER_03I just incredible swing, like great swing feeling and like, yeah. Oh great swing feel. Yeah, fabulous. Love it. Um uh you're gonna what uh are are you boys? Are you ready for a speed round? Yes, only if you include eighth position.
SPEAKER_01Uh moment the slide goes flying across. That's it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's great band right there. Lots of eighth position called for. Yeah. But only in the quiet sections.
SPEAKER_03That's right. All of these uh speed round questions have to do with Boston.
SPEAKER_02Oh geez.
SPEAKER_03I know. Get ready.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I went to undergrad and grad school here, and I would probably fail this, but here we go.
SPEAKER_03Um in 1919, what substance exploded out of a massive 2.3 million gallon uh million gallons industrial tank and flooded the streets?
SPEAKER_01The great molasses flood or something. I learned about this from my new South students. I did not know what it was.
SPEAKER_05I heard a podcast about this, actually. Let's move on. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's an actual thing.
SPEAKER_05People die.
SPEAKER_03It was like a mixture. Uh Chris, Chris, uh what what tends to leak all over the streets in Green Bay? I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Oh.
SPEAKER_03Uh cheese, mostly. Cheese, yes. That's right. Um 1984. Boston banned what popular activity in a bar? 1984. And if it will never ever be banned in Wisconsin. Never.
SPEAKER_01I what happens around singing? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03What happens around four o'clock at a bar in the afternoon?
SPEAKER_01Happy hour.
SPEAKER_03There's no happy hour in Boston. There's no happy hour. That was Boston banned.
SPEAKER_05This is true. Why?
SPEAKER_03Why can you not have a happy hour? They're trying to get people to come to Wisconsin. We got a got a lease. Well, there you go.
SPEAKER_01Did you hear about um when the World Cup was here, the Scotland we ran out of beer in Boston? Oh. We were not prepared.
SPEAKER_03What? You were not prepared. Wow, we weren't. No, that doesn't happen in Wisconsin. That's a lot of drinking.
SPEAKER_01The Sam Adams factory ran out of beer. The Sam Adams factory is here. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean that says a lot about footballers from other countries.
SPEAKER_03There you go. Uh what city outside Boston uh is the first Duncan located in?
SPEAKER_01That's such a good question. Outside of Boston?
SPEAKER_03That's okay. Peter and Chris, you don't know. Uh Quincy.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03It's close. Good enough.
SPEAKER_01Um and it's Quincy.
SPEAKER_03Um locals. Take that. Uh right. What what unusual bowling sport was invented in Boston in 1980? It's the little pins.
SPEAKER_01The candle pins?
SPEAKER_03There we go. First Thanksgiving was celebrated in Boston in what year? I'll give you choices if you want.
SPEAKER_0116 um six 1642?
SPEAKER_0321. 1621. We'll give it to you that you went. Um, what famous opera was the inspiration for Boston's Swan Boat?
unknownDid not.
SPEAKER_01Oh, Swan Lake.
SPEAKER_03Good guess. Uh Lowengrid.
SPEAKER_01Ballet. Okay. Sorry. Opera.
SPEAKER_03Uh, what year did John Williams first conduct at Symphony Hall?
SPEAKER_01Ooh, uh 1978.
SPEAKER_0380. Really close. 80. Give it. Wow. Definitely. All right. Last one. Uh, this has nothing to do with Boston at all. But um uh famous, famous, famous jazz trombonist that wrote for Dizzy's band and also collaborated and wrote with Randy Weston.
SPEAKER_01Melba Liston, baby. There we go.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Everybody loves Melba.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_03That was the last one. When you started Jazz, was it, I mean, it there had to be some growing pains in there. Were there Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, my brother-in-law is a band director, and so I sent out, and I I've grown up in the state, I know everybody, so I just sent everybody I knew an email. Hey, I'm trying to do this. And so I saw him at Thanksgiving, and he's like, uh, just so you know, like you really upset a lot of people. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, well, you know, a lot of us we have girls in our jazz band. And he has two daughters, and and I was like, Okay, um, we need to talk. And so one win fan director in particular was very bothered because he had at least half girls, right? And meanwhile, the rest of us have a full, like all boys, but half girls, like it's he didn't have all girls. So it was interesting to me to like that he was about 50-50 and very upset by what I said. I ended up talking to him a couple months later and kind of digging in a little bit more, and then he's like, Oh, he's like, you know what? I gotta confess, like, I was mad, but I was just an idiot. And so, like, there were growing pains for sure, just people not knowing what it was. Um, but the great thing is, even just like aside from the website, um the judges that we have, like at our it's called M A J E Massachusetts Association for Jazz Education, they've been starting to hire women to judge the events. Um do you want to hear a funny story? Do you have time?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I love the funny story.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's a little device, it's you know, the low brass, you'll you'll appreciate this. Um, so when they first started to expand a little bit, they asked me, kind of one of the first women they'd asked in a long time, to do the middle school because I already teach at the high school, so I can't go judge that. And I was thrilled. Like, oh, you know, jazz hers, the idea is like in the air. They were recognizing they don't have a lot of diversity here. They're asking me. I said, absolutely. So they gave me three dates. And so I get on my phone, I like boop, boop, boop, call my friend, um, Leanne, who teaches, you know, 20 minutes away from here and has been teaching for a number of years as an excellent jazz band. And I said, Leanne, guess what? M-A-J-E, we're kind of expanding some diversity. They just asked me to judge the middle school festivals. She said, Congratulations. I said, Well, I'm gonna be sick for one of them, and I want to know which one of the three I should be sick for because you're gonna be my sub. And she was like, No. And I'm like, Yeah, because I know you can do this and I know you're great.
SPEAKER_05And it's you devious, devious planner. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And because I grew up in this state, so I was sick, and she subbed for me last minute. She was fantastic. They've asked her back every year since, and I literally couldn't even contain the secret. I had to, like, as soon as it was over, I had to, you know, and they're my friends, the president of MAJAE. I said, I gotta tell you what I did just because I'm feeling like I can't keep the secret. Um, but yeah, just getting in there to like, you know, stir things up and just keep the representation going. So yeah, definitely growing pains, but I've been also having a good time. They MAJAE just commissioned Annie Booth. Um, she wrote a piece for and it's gonna be free for everybody in Massachusetts to play. Um, yeah, so it just even little things like offshoots that have nothing to do with me, but it's just like because the conversation's happening, please change.
SPEAKER_03Lisa Annie's part of that um jazz publishing collective. What's that publishing collective?
SPEAKER_01Brava, brava jazz. That's her and um Alan Bailock at North Texas together, they teamed up to do this just to get more representation and kind of they have some great charts on there.
SPEAKER_03The charts are good. And that should be if you get called to do a middle school gig or you are a middle school jazz band director, you're gonna start with that, and there's high school charts in there too. I that's almost my first stop now.
SPEAKER_01It's great. Yeah, I mean I like I go do honor bands. I love to bring I've had my own kids do it too, but yeah, honor bands, all of that stuff. Like, like check it out, it's good stuff.
SPEAKER_03It is brava.
SPEAKER_05It's excellent. Lisa, it's great to meet you. It's great to meet you. Thanks for sharing and thanks for all you're doing for Jazz, not only for your students, but all of the Boston area. That's just really great.
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna I'm gonna pile on that. I'm gonna pile on that. You're gonna yes, and you you saw something that had to get fixed and something to improve, and you took it upon yourself to be that person, to take that challenge and do that. I love it. And it takes courage, it takes humility, it takes curiosity.
SPEAKER_02I mean, all of work, a lot of that, but bless you for doing it and what you're continuing to do.
SPEAKER_04Amazing. You are an exceptional teacher.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Oh, Lisa, thanks for doing this on the East Coast, an hour late. Um, and uh my friends, my my two was you know, Midwestern bonehead friends got to meet someone who actually knows what they're doing. Yeah, we know other people too that know what they're doing.
SPEAKER_04Uh well, neither do you do. Um, no, that was that was a treat. This is a very big treat. Nice to meet you.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having me. I had a great time. Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, we're gonna spread your gospel and get things started out here in the same way, somehow, in what way, shape, or form.
SPEAKER_01And you know, I might be at some point I've talked to Matt McVeigh um about coming out to Sun Prairie to do a little jazz hers one day. I've been trying to say, like, I would love to make it free and you know, be bringing out like Melissa Aldana, like showing up in these different places. So I'm working on the funding, but um, yeah, who knows?
SPEAKER_03Awesome. Um, all right. Thanks, Lisa.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. Hey, Phil, well done. That was really fun. Thanks. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_03I can't believe she admits she knows you. She's really got it together. That's good. I was sitting on that mystery guest for quite some time, and I just knew it was gonna be awesome. I just knew it. That's a good one. Yeah. Um, just a a really genuine, um uh kind, caring soul. Uh I didn't know what the heck I was doing in graduate school, and for you know, several decades after that. Um Lisa just seemed to have her act together, like knew what teaching was about and knew how to deal with work with people and just a passionate teacher. Just awesome.
SPEAKER_05So I love how it's the creativity that was the spark that got her out of the flute section and to realize, oh, and jazz too. I get to like have some choice here, and all of a sudden, look at her now. Love that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I had a good mentor once who took a took a pen. You know what those are? It's not AI generated, they're real things. Took a pen, took a piece of paper, drew a little dot, and then drew a circle around it, and said, Your circle of influence can be right there. Could be your classroom, could be, you know what I mean, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. That's plenty. But he's like, you could challenge yourself, and in some circumstances, he drew another circle. And he's like, it could be larger. Like what fascinates me about her is she saw a problem and she decided not to just be content with I could change this just for my classroom, which again, there's nothing wrong with that. But like you look at the impact, what she was just talking about, that ripple is now carrying not only across her state, but across the country. Which proves that well, it just proves that don't count yourself like you can't make a difference. If you see something that you want to fix, then go after it, run after it, because who knows how far that can go. I just oh, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_05Chris Gleason, everybody, Chris Gleason. We should end the podcast with that right there. Right there?
SPEAKER_03This is a computer just logged out. Uh that's it for Chris tonight. Um, he feel I think that was a mic drop. I think we just witnessed one of the first Beyond Artless Chris Gleason mic drops. Digital video recording. Pretty impressive. I mean, one of the better mic drops I've ever seen.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I think we're still recording though.
SPEAKER_03This is it. Is this the last episode? Are we there? Is that I I think we're done.
SPEAKER_04Beyond Artless is sponsored by Beyond the Notes Music Festival. Our mission is to create and provide profound learning and social experiences through music that go beyond the notes. Visit BTN Musicfestival.com to learn more.
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