beyond ArtLess
“Beyond ArtLess" with Chris Gleason, Peter Haberman & Phil Ostrander is a podcast that explores the friendships and the community that exists in and outside of the arts and arts education. In each episode of Beyond ArtLess, one of the hosts reveals his mystery guest to the other two. What comes next is a fun-filled conversation revealing the joy of friendship and the artlessness of the hosts. Unlike most successful classrooms, this show is not well planned and probably not worth your time.
beyond ArtLess
David Davis
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Commuter, this week we’re talking about music education, change, and the seemingly radical idea that every kid deserves to see themselves in the music classroom. David Davis has gone from traditional music educator to change agent, working to make music education more inclusive, relevant, and equitable for all students. We talk about what needs to change, why literacy matters, and what happens when we stop treating the way we’ve always done things as the way we always have to do things. Peter, Chris and Phil also do their part to prove that systemic change is much easier to discuss than successfully executing a podcast.
Learn More about David:
https://educationminnesota.org/news/awards-and-honors/teacher-of-the-year/
https://nafme.org/member-profile/david-davis-2/
https://www.fox9.com/news/st-louis-park-music-teacher-named-minnesota-teacher-year
Resources Mentioned:
A Sound Approach to Teaching Instrumentalists: An Application of Content and Learning Sequences
Nurtured by Love: The Classic Approach to Talent Education by Shinichi Suzuki and Waltraud Suzuki | Jun 1, 1993
Teaching Rhythm: New Strategies and Techniques for Success by David Newell (Author)
Jump Right In: The Music Curriculum, Reference Handbook for Using Learning Sequence Activities by Edwin E. Gordon
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Hey commuter, what do an Oreo, a Twinkie, and a trampoline and this episode have in common? The best part is in the middle. So buckle up, commuter. Today's episode is surrounded by a generous helping of completely unnecessary banter on both ends. We strongly encourage you to skip past the outer layers, ignore the structural integrity of this Oreo, and head straight to the good stuff in the middle. Welcome to another helping of Beyond Artless. Okay, so when we came on tonight, there were two Peters. Two's a lot. You want to get a little closer with the mic when you're chewing? I'm also finishing eating dinner. Sorry, hold on. I'll go to mute. No, no, no. Keep it on. It's good. I like this. This is great. Especially since they're chips. Oh, now he's leaving. That's too bad.
SPEAKER_04Well, hi, Phil. How are you? I everything seems to be going according to plan. Yeah. Everything's great. We've got ice ice cubes clinking. We've got chips crackling. What what could be better?
SPEAKER_06A Sunday night with my friends.
SPEAKER_04What's going on, Peter? Ram and Julie made a good soup.
SPEAKER_06Splendid. Real world. Real world. This is as real as it gets.
SPEAKER_05How's the city of Green Bay tonight, Chris? It's great. Everyone's happy in Green Bay. It's fine. There's nothing to worry about. This is part of the plan. Wow. What a start to the season. It's been it's fine. It's fine. So this will come out two weeks later, and by that point the Packers will be uh, what would that be? Two and one. It'll be fine. Nothing to worry about. Just a little uh little hiccup in the gide. Nothing to worry about. Okay.
SPEAKER_04All right. This is how we roll. Yep. As long as long as you didn't see smoke rising from Lambeau, I then we should be okay.
SPEAKER_05Hey, but check this out. This is pretty cool. If I go here and I do this, okay, now watch this.
SPEAKER_06That's what the rest of that room looks like.
SPEAKER_04I've never known. Why why is he running around the room? I have no idea.
SPEAKER_05And then he I lost it. Can't find me now, can it? We keep talking about AI and how smart it is and how it's gonna end the world, and it can't follow me. Right now? It just followed you around the room. It did. I was running around, but it couldn't keep up with me.
SPEAKER_04This is clearly an exploration in just how much we can edit out of the banter at the beginning of the podcast.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I know. Stop waving your hand in front of a camera that's looking at the wall. But my uh it won't turn.
SPEAKER_05Look how dumb it is. There, now it's like, duh, there you are. Telling you, we have nothing to worry about. We're fine. AI.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you're showing some disturbing trends. Disturbing trends of someone who spends a little too much time online. That is exactly what I was thinking with season save. I just think we've definitely crossed over. All I do. Peter and Chris, how long do you have before your first honor band?
SPEAKER_05How much time? I don't think I don't think I'm on until uh, well, Midwest is kind of an honor band.
SPEAKER_06I just took one for October. Oh I said I wasn't gonna do that anymore.
SPEAKER_05Oh whoopsie daisy. I think January. January and then March. How about you, Phil? Why? You got one tomorrow?
SPEAKER_04Nope. No honor bands on the uh schedule at this point. Uh it's all free. December. Uh had some interesting gigs this week. Played a one tune on the Hispanic Heritage Awards uh ceremony, which will be on PBS live, maybe about two weeks after the release of this podcast. And then I played uh last night at uh the Pablo Center fundraiser with Mr. Baca. It's very interesting. How is Bob doing? Uh Mr. Baca's very well. It was really nice to play a gig with my friend. No tubo. Cool. No tubo. Bass, clarinet, violin, drums, and piano. We uh were there as a beach band, Chris. We played a little zydeco, a little shuffle, a lot of shuffly bluesy kinds of things.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Beach band never shuffled. No. What are we doing? A lot of second line, a lot of second line tunes. Yeah. Third line.
SPEAKER_06Peter. We're in the swing of things here. Whatever, whatever, three weeks, whatever, and and uh Encore started rehearsal, so I just feel like we're like back at it.
SPEAKER_04What's the what's the hallmark piece, uh, this rotation for Encore?
SPEAKER_06Um, well, we're featuring Chuck Charles Lazarus on uh American Nomad, a new uh transcription of the work. It's about 10 years old, I think, maybe 11, but it's been transcribed for wins. So we're gonna premiere that with him at St. Andrews on October 4th. You're all welcome to join us October 4th. Check the calendar right now on that. Lutheran Church in Matamida, it's very exciting. I think it's a three o'clock, three o'clock show. Um, what else? We've got a world premiere by Jack Stamp, a world premiere by Dean Sorensen, first sweet knee flat. Gotta have some sort of uh certain things. And then we're featuring Bill Schernard on organ. So Dean Sorensen's piece has Bill Schonard playing, and I figured, well, if that's the case, so we're then we're doing Ron Nelson's Pebble Beach Sojourn, which is brass percussion in organ. And that mighty instrument that he has at St. Andrews. That's quite the thing. So we're gonna it's gonna be a great day. And this American Nomad piece by Steven Heitzig is a wonderful concerto. Very contemporary, it's got jazz, you know, it features everything that Charles does well. So it's got some open improvisation sections. It's feels like Copeland, feels like Stravinsky, feels like blues. It's urban, it's rural, it's everything. It's it's quite a 35-minute journey. And the second movement is so beautifully transcribed because it was strings only, and they did Woodwin choir, and I was like, I don't know if that's gonna work, but the way they scored for the clarinets and the saxophones and the oboe solos, and it's beautifully done. So super exciting. Yes, did you see there's yeah, saxophones?
SPEAKER_05Well, our our guest tonight is actually a saxophonist. He chose saxophones as a fifth grader, uh, because he couldn't make a sound on his first choice, which was a trumpet. Um, he's collected Pokemon cards as a child and still have his original holographic Charizard. I don't know how to say that word. It's it's rather big. He once made a PowerPoint presentation for his Christmas gift wish list. That should tell you a lot.
SPEAKER_06My niece does that, except it's on Canva and with links that you can just go ahead and purchase right there.
SPEAKER_05That's so well done. That's really well done. That's smart. Yeah. Um he really likes the board game Monopoly, even though no one ever wants to play it. Uh, in college, he once won Guitar Hero Contest and won 80 bucks. Guitar? That's impressive. Yeah. As a high school saxophonist who was interested in exploring additional music opportunities, he joined the extracurricular clarinet choir and was assigned to play the alto clarinet because it looked like a saxophone.
SPEAKER_06I mean, yeah. We all recover from things like that. Well, we all make choices. Okay. Yes.
SPEAKER_05All right. Now you go from that to this one. Check this out. He shook President Obama's hand in the Oval Office. Whoa. He's a music educator, an innovator, a researcher, a change agent, a saxophone player, and apparently someone who has enough energy to have about six careers at the same time. He's focused um on asking some rather uncomfortable questions, but important questions about music education. Who is it really serving? Why do we keep doing the things because that's just the way they've been done? Amen. And what would happen if we actually designed music education around the human sitting in front of us? He's working at the intersection of culturally responsive teaching, motivation science, music literacy, and the science of reading. He's also helping build a community of educators who are willing to rethink what music education could look like rather than simply trying to make the existing system slightly less broken. And apparently, other people have noticed he's the 2026 Minnesota Teacher of the Year, a Grammy Music Educator semifinalist, a give a note music education innovator, a music for all elementary excellence award recipient, and a Yamaha 40 under 40 educator. And oh, by the way, gentlemen, the three of us are part of the 5000 over 50 list. He is a teacher, a husband, a traveler, a cook, a gamer, and someone who clearly isn't afraid to change the status quo. Gentlemen, and I use that term loosely. Today's guest is David Davis. Welcome, David.
SPEAKER_01Greeting. Hi. Thank you for inviting me. I'm very honored to talk with you all, and thank you for that wonderful intro. That's very wonderful. Well, it gets worse from here, don't worry. So I've heard.
SPEAKER_05So I've heard. Well wow. But this man, he's done his homework. You know, he's not this, he's not taking anything to chance. He came on tonight. He's like, uh, listened to a couple episodes, and um, yeah, it's too bad. Like I feels a little sympathy for us. Um, David, what just a pleasure again. We've we got a chance to meet through a mutual acquaintance, you know, Eric Songer and amazing uh music educator in his own right. But uh what a what an honor to read more about you and honestly, you helped me learn more about like the science of reading and uh a lens into this music world. Because actually, what's what's interesting about tonight, not just the Wisconsin-Minnesota give and take and how bad the Packers look, but the reality of we just finished our music standards, like literally tonight. I think we just put the final dot on that document after a year of really intensely working at this.
SPEAKER_02And I'm coming to the language standards on it, right?
SPEAKER_05We have language as one of our standards, which is really a really cool, interesting take on this. But it is your information that I stole a lot of things from, thinking about the science of reading and the way that we talk about the words decode and so on. I'm just wondering if you could talk and speak a little bit about that intersection with your own teaching and how that informs the way that you teach your students now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think uh it started as a band teacher, just noticing year after year uh students struggling with reading notation and wondering why is my way of teaching never fixed. Like there's always some kids that struggle. Um, so I just started reading a bunch and then happened to also get my master's degree at the same time, and discovered uh books by Suzuki and Ed Gordon and Stanley Schleter and all these people that have been researching the science of reading as music as a second language since like, I don't know, the 1960s or 80s or something. A long time people have been talking about it, but it was the first I'd heard of it, and I was just fascinated. Um and sure enough, the more I learned about what they said and then ex started experimenting in my classroom, I saw differences with my students. Um, just little things like teaching music as patterns rather than one note at a time. Um, I had the realization that like think English, we we don't teach kids English one letter at a time, right? If we had them identify like that's an H, that's an A, that's a T, good, you just read that word. Like that's not how it works. Like that's actually naming the letters of the alphabet. Um, it's the phonics of that symbol stands for, and that symbol stands for uh, and that symbol stands for t, and that's hat. Um, and that our brains work the same way with music too. So um just things like um I'm also letters trained, which stands for language essentials for teachers of reading and spelling, which is training that a lot of uh teachers in Minnesota have been getting because of the Minnesota Read Act, and it's all about the the science of reading and phonics and phonemic awareness and awareness and orthographic mapping. And um I voluntarily took that because I was just curious about the the brain science of how we learn language. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I love that. I love that. And I I apologize for those again who don't know you uh so well. Can you just give us a little background on where you teach and what you teach and what you do and so on, just so we can get a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I uh so I I mentioned I was a band teacher. I started my career as a a pretty traditionalist band teacher who played classical saxophone. Um a few years in I added orchestra. Um so I I love instruments. Um and then uh around COVID times I switched to general music. Um but I still identify as a band and orchestra teacher. So I tell people I'm a band teacher that doesn't currently have a dedicated band. Um I should say concert band, because in my general music classroom, we definitely do have like garage bands and rock bands and xylophone bands, and there's many ensembles in my room. It's just not a quote unquote Eurocentric concert band. Um so to answer your question, I'm currently in St. Louis Park, Minnesota, just west of Minneapolis, and I teach at Park Spanish Immersion Elementary uh K through five. So I teach the entire building.
SPEAKER_05Aaron Powell And true or false, have you ever been part of Encore wind ensemble?
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell True, yeah. I heard from some of the past episodes that uh one of the hosts is a conductor of Encore. Um I played in the before COVID time, so I think it was 2017 to 2019. I was the the first chair saxophonist.
SPEAKER_05And I think you said to me that's when it was good. Uh wasn't that what you did. I didn't say that. No. Oh, sorry. Oh, it was I remember your own head. That sounds accurate. Okay. Yeah, got it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06I can I can handle it, David. I can handle it. Um this is this is really cool. Uh I tell me more about the reading concept. Uh um uh decoding, right? Our students should not, when they're reading for the first time, they shouldn't be H A Ting. They should be able to kind of be almost right, seeing full phrases, things like this as they go along. Um Do you how do you connect to the teaching of those fundamentals of reading of music, similarly to how we teach reading of the English language?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, great question. Um, and I found the more I connect it to verbal language, the more it makes sense to me. And it tends to, I think, make sense to people I'm talking to as well. So let me just ask you like from what you understand about how humans learn their mother tongue, like what what's usually the the process?
SPEAKER_06So for me, I'm uh a big fan of sound assymbol teaching, right? So um, and I actually have a lot of my students work with David Newell's book, Teaching Rhythm and other sources um that help them realize that we speak, we create sounds, that's what little kids do, and then they come back together. Um and then he I really teach my students to teach rhythm in this way. And in fact, note names, clefts, all of this, even internal pulse can be done in a sound, simple way, taught in a group environment, and you can see success. And it just takes a long time for my teachers to trust it because they weren't taught that way. And I think teaching music does make us smarter, but I think the way we currently teach music, only the smart kids survive. Because we ask them to do a lot of things. So, but uh but I will be honest, like my the depth goes, it doesn't go as far as I want it to. I'd love to have more resources and and um other places or people to send my students to, but uh he just really does that, and then I use a meal so that they can see this, you know, the music uh flashes up, but they have to read a whole measure, then it goes away, and then they say it, so on and so forth. So he really goes sound as simple teaching, um, which has been around since pre-Suzuki. And uh that's how we learn a language, and I feel like in fact it's actually harder to read music because if we read the New York Times together, we would um whoa, someone's typing. Um uh if we were to read the New York Times together, we would not read it at the exact same tempo.
SPEAKER_02So I think it's not right, because the music, everyone's doing it at the same tempo.
SPEAKER_06It's even harder than reading English language, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I had a light bulb moment um where I realized that the technical skills of playing an instrument are a different skill set than music, fluency, and comprehension. Um and I feel like up until then, my thought was if you can play sheet music accurately and quickly, you must be musically fluent and literate. Um, and what I've come to believe now is that's not true. That just means I'm a really good saxophone technician, not necessarily a fluent musician. Um, and the analogy that really made it click for me was I think it was maybe Fire Robind, um said, Imagine you have a keyboard that's in like Greek and has all these like upside-down Ts and I's with three dots and everything that I I don't know Greek. Um but theoretically I can open it. Right, Greek to me too, yes. Um but theoretically, I could open up a children's book written in Greek and be tasked with typing that book. And I would have to hunt and peck at first, but after doing that for 12 years, my words per minute would probably be pretty quick. I'd be a really good Greek typist. But through those 12 years of copying Greek text, did I ever learn Greek? Can I speak Greek? Can I understand people when they speak Greek to me? Can I write my own Greek? Probably not. I I would recognize some like, oh, I've seen that combination all the time. So, like, my brain knows how to type so quick, but I don't actually know Greek. And I feel like I'm my brain is kind of like that with music because I wasn't trained to improvise very much, to compose very much. My audien skills are very atrophied. Um, but I can play the hardest saxophone music out there if you put the sheet music in front of me. Um, so for me, that was a big differentiation of like, oh, these are two different skill sets. And I think a lot of music teachers perhaps um are teaching the technical skills and maybe not so much the music literacy, fluency skills.
SPEAKER_06So so I want to I want to go back. What are some resources that we could give to the uh great music educators that are uh luckily listening to this good podcast this time? Usually it's crap. But um what can we give them to get them started on a path towards teaching students to be musically literate?
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, I think especially for instrumental teachers, the one that um was the easiest for me to understand and approachable for instrumentalists was a sound approach to teaching instrumentalists by Stanley Schleter. Um, and I think he bases that off of Ed Gordon's research. Yeah. And then I would say Ed Gordon's stuff, but his stuff is pretty like academic, dense. Rather cerebral. Yeah, I've read it multiple times, and there's still parts I'm like, I'm not quite sure what he's saying, but um I think he did his research, so um I would suggest Ed Gordon. It's just tough to understand from my perspective.
SPEAKER_05Again, very much like Phil. I mean, that was it was a little one, but it was very well placed. Timing.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Okay. Um even Suzuki's nurtured by love is not too hard to read either.
SPEAKER_06So and I I found that um uh teaching rhythm and David Newell's thing really is I mean, he's very Gordon as well, and he um really talks about that. If you can't read it, write it, you know, speak it. Uh and he just uses that, and I'm I found it to be very powerful. So he does it just through rhythm, but you can and even there's some um creative director stuff from Ed Lisk that lines up really well with these things as tools. So I'll read it. So I'll stop talking.
SPEAKER_04No, David, I have to say I'm familiar with many of the things uh that you have spoken about, uh, not all, and I'm not nearly as uh well read or um uh versed in what we as as you are. Um but I've experienced um learning music in Suzuki as a young child, and then my college training was um Ed Gordon's method. Uh it's True, jump right in, which is a band method that incorporates a lot of different pattern work and soulfish and uh um uh is one of many things I use to teach with. Um and I'm I'm basically wondering is w when Chris is holding up a sign that says a question might be coming soon. It's well just hanging in there. Uh I I'm wondering, uh was it a gradual process uh that you became frustrated with when you were teaching, or was it all of a sudden like you just realized you needed a revolutionary change? So but I guess my question is revolutionary or revolutionary?
SPEAKER_02That was so good. Why didn't you just ask that? It was a good question. Um yeah, I think it was the gradual being a band teacher and seeing the same types of kids frustrated every year. Like it was always like, I don't know, 40% of the kids learned how to read notation, the other 60% didn't, and often they quit. And every I was in like year eight, and I was like, why is it like I thought I thought I'd be a better teacher by now, but it's the same kids keep quitting. And so um, so it was a gradual frustration, and then it was me getting a master's degree, and there was a class where the professor said, Hey, pick one of these like music pedagogues and read about them. And I saw the name Ed Gordon. I was like, that name looks familiar. I want to read about him. And that's what the light bulb was was finally reading Ed Gordon. And then I was able to finally put my finger on that's what I've been seeing, and that's why my kids are getting frustrated, and it's my approach, is actually not aligned with the research or the science. And and I was like, oh, I gotta change. And then like the next day, I started changing my approach, and um, so yeah, it was gradual until it wasn't.
SPEAKER_04What's awesome is that a a lot of teachers might get to that point and just get frustrated and quit or give up or fold. And you did the opposite. And uh, that takes, you know, work and courage and um making mistakes. Did you feel like when you made the changes that you made a bunch of mistakes and learning, you know, to teach a different way?
SPEAKER_02Oh, yes, all the time. And I still don't feel like I'm anywhere near being an expert. I'm still in trial and error mode and action research mode. And I mean, I it's really hard because I struggle with auditation myself. So I feel like I'm like if I was a Spanish teacher who like could only speak at like a three-year-old level, you wouldn't want me teaching Spanish, right? And I kind of feel like that sometimes as a music teacher. Um, maybe I shouldn't have said that on a podcast, but it'll be fine. Nobody's listening. Keep going. Right, right. Um, but what I have realized is holy cow, I've had such a narrow, yeah, right. I've had such a narrow niche understanding of music myself now that I'm a music teacher. I definitely don't want my students to have that same thing. So I've worked really hard to make sure I'm teaching improvisation as young as kindergarten and creating songwriting is just normalized. So my students aren't afraid to just make up their own music. And um, we actually have some really cool projects now where like they they make like 10-year-olds are making songs that legit sound like rock songs that could be on Spotify. Um, so it's once I finally like leaned into that the stuff I was scared about, um, I saw the awesome results, and that encouraged me to keep going, even though I kept yep, falling into pitfalls. So I've gotten a lot better, is what I'm trying to say.
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SPEAKER_05David, question for you here, and I'll get right to the question, and that is this you talk a lot about moving music education beyond familiar but limiting models. What's one thing we do in music education that everyone seems to accept as normal that you think we need to question? Gatekeeping.
SPEAKER_02Tell me more. Um, well, so I have two main examples. One, uh, think about the music that we tend to teach in our field. Um and if it comes from our continent. So what are the genres created in North America? Like the famous ones, rock and roll, country, hip hop, appalacian, jazz. Um, but even jazz, so most of these genres we don't do in our uh schools. And if we do do them, they're either extracurricular or zero hour. Um, so I kind of had a realization a few years ago that we don't even center the music of our own continent. Um, and there's nothing wrong with Eurocentric music, but it seems a little weird that we're doing like 98% music from another continent rather than the genre of our own people. Um, so I see that as one version of gatekeeping where we're keeping out certain genres or othering them by saying, oh, if we do them, it should be zero hour. So as a I I've asked people before, as a thought experiment, what if we had jazz band during the day and concert band was zero hour? And sometimes people are like, oh, well, that would ruin the program. I'm like, well, that's that's kind of what I'm talking about. Like that bias is what I think some of us aren't seeing, is that we are biasing Western Eurocentric concert music as you know, the most important one. And that's why it's during the school day. And all the other ones we either don't do or um are othered. And then the other example is the instruments that we allow. Um so we only allow instruments that are for the Eurocentric ensembles. So I'm an advocate of what if instead of calling it orchestra, we call it string ensemble, and any instrument that uses string can join it. Um, which like guitar. Can guitar, like the kids who want to learn guitar, can they be an orchestra class? Most schools right now say, no, no, no, we don't allow guitar. And if we did guitar, it would be an extracurricular, right? So again, we're othering that instrument and all the kids who see themselves in that instrument and want to play it. And and we tell them, no, if you want to be in this uh curricular class during the school day, you have to choose one of these Eurocentric instruments. Um I once had a family who emigrated from Russia in my school, and their kid took private lessons on accordion. Phenomenal accordion at age nine, um, accordion player. And their family was, I was the band teacher then, and they said, you know, can can he join band? And I said, Oh, like that would be interesting. Um, just so you know, I don't know anything about teaching accordion. They're like, no, no, no, no, we're not worried about that. We just want him to be part of the group. He takes private lessons. Um, I was like, okay, like we'll we'll figure it out. Like, and I ended up arranging music for accordion, and um, I even composed uh element, a first-year accordion concerto to feature him because I was like, oh, I've never had an accordion before, like, let's feature it. Um, but I remember talking with some other music colleagues about like, oh guys, guess what? Like this accordion player, and they were like, Well, you told the family no, right? Like, there's no music for accordion, so what's he gonna do when he gets to middle school? Like that kind of mentality of, well, no, the the system, like pieces aren't written for accordion, so we can't allow accordion. Kind of like a chicken and egg. I was like, Well, maybe we don't allow, maybe pieces aren't written for accordion because we don't allow accordion. Um so to answer your question, those are the two gatekeeping things that I see the most that I it's kind of like a bias that I don't know if um especially band teachers necessarily notice.
SPEAKER_05You have a program, an initiative um called Changemakers in Music Education, right? And on your website, very nice website, by the way, nice design, like the colors. Changemakers in Music Education brings together music educators who share a dream that every student will see themselves as a musician. To get there, we need to build a music education system that is more inclusive, relevant, and human-centered. How did this begin and what's been the impact?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I appreciate the question. Um, it began through a grant through the Minnesota Department of Education called Culturally Responsive Arts Education. Um, and they there were, I think, 60 arts teachers, so music, theater, visual art across the state. Um, and we learned about anti-racism and equity and systemic change and how do we actually make arts education more inclusive and better for students. Um, and then they said, hey, and we have grant money to fund a project that you can do to help make change. Um, and a lot of people did things in their classroom. Um, some people decided to do a district-wide initiative. And I was sitting there being like, oh, I've worked so many years on making changes in my classroom, and I'm already on a leadership role in my district. I kind of want to do something statewide to like try to move that needle a little bit more. Um, and what I landed on was what if like I found other innovative music educators thinking along the same lines I am. Um, because I found in my uh lived experience it's been really lonely and isolating being an innovator in music education. Um it's kind of like that polarization of if you start doing things differently, like people kick me to the island, like you're not one of us anymore. Um and I I figured, well, there might be other people that have been experiencing that, and maybe if we banded together, we could like lean on each other's brilliance and innovation and start to make a movement, a coalition. Um, so to answer your question, that's where the idea started, and that's kind of where it's at right now. I've I've found seven other people in Minnesota so far. Um, so there's eight of us, and I'm hoping by the end of my teacher of the year year that that number will grow up to like 80. And maybe by the end of my career, it'll be 8,000 across the nation, and what we're doing will start to become the norm, and it won't be a change maker anymore. It'll just be well, well, that's how we teach music. And oh, you mean like 30 years ago people didn't do improvising all the time or songwriting wasn't really a thing they did?
SPEAKER_05Like it. I love it. Like it. Yep too. Peter, you had your hand up.
SPEAKER_06No, I was just holding my fist in the air because I think that's that's great. And uh um I am not nearly the change maker you are, but uh I've really yeah, I'll give you that. Um, but I continue to push for change in how we teach so that every child can make music and whatever that form is gonna look, and that um we don't teach in a way I would also say gatekeepers are we teach in a way that only some of the smart kids survive. Um, like I was mentioning earlier, and I think that um our pedagogy needs to change, and our exception, our accepting improvisation, all these things. I'm I'm I'm all in. Um and I just think you but you were in your year eight. You were in year eight. You gained confidence, you were in a master's degree, and then I have graduate students that are even changing schools after teaching nearly eight years, and they're like, This first year was just like I was almost like literally a first year again, because every all the processes, you know, things were new, you're re-establishing yourself, you don't know any students when you walk in the door. And I just think like, how can we make how can we help build that's why I was asking for resources, but how do we build um confident teachers to go with you on this journey? Like how how can we make this easier? How can we fold them in, try some things, gain confidence in this way, and then you know, storm the hill?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and uh I think maybe just a short answer is dialogue and talking with people, and um, I don't know, sometimes I think of like the political polarization and how I don't see too many people on the extremes talking with each other, and then that leaves so much space for um miscommunication and assumptions and tribalism. And in my lived experience, I've experienced that in the music education world too, where um I was like a super traditionalist band teacher. And then as soon as I started questioning things and changing things, just like completely shunned, and you're not one of us anymore. Um, and it makes me wonder like, oh, like what if we just had more dialogue and like we I think we do kind of want the same thing. We want what's best for kids. And um so that that's kind of the intent of change makers, is like let's let's talk, let's make a community classical saxophonist.
SPEAKER_05I mean, you're kind of getting in on all ends, aren't you?
SPEAKER_02You know, like innovator and then uh and you can't force people to change their mindsets, you can't force people to do things that are scary, but you can talk with them and you can model things. So again, the change makers, not only is it a community of like-minded people that I would encourage any listeners who see themselves as change makers to explore and join. Um, but it's also uh people modeling this is how we did it. And this is my like, yeah, I went through the the really challenging trial and error, and I still don't feel like I'm an expert at music literacy, but um I've read the research. I believe like I'm I'm trying to do it, all comes down to doing what I think is best for kids. Um, and I want them to be well-rounded musicians, not just button pushers. Um, I want my students of color to see themselves reflected in high school instrumental music. Whereas I think right now the national trend is only 15% of high schoolers are in instrumental groups and they're majority white. So I think there's some reasons why that's a trend nationwide. Um, and we can't just put our heads in the sand and be like, well, I'm just gonna keep doing band the way I've always done it. Um, because I actually think that's existential. If we don't adapt and change, I think it's a matter of, I don't know, another decade before society says, why do we even have this in our schools anymore? This isn't relevant to our kids, this isn't value anymore. Let's just make it all extracurricular. Um, kind of like Blockbuster, right? Like, are we the blockbuster of the world right now, thinking if we just double down on renting out saxophones, like it'll eventually get better? Like I'd be like, well, no, I think we need to adapt as a field. We need to do more electric guitars, we need to do more singing, songwriting, we need to do more electronic music, um, more students as co-teachers. And I believe we can't teach creativity unless the kids are making choices. Um, otherwise, they're just following the choices I'm making, and that's compliance. That's not creativity. So I know I'm starting to go down the rabbit here, so I'll stop.
SPEAKER_04Uh David, have you found that um in working on improvisation and songwriting, which you clearly you're passionate about, that it makes a difference what age students you're working with. So it seems to me like perhaps you're drawn to working with students that are younger and younger as a result of that, a passion about that type that um topic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um I and I wouldn't say I'm drawn to younger students because of that. Um honestly, I was drawn to younger students because I got frustrated with how stubborn the the older system, like high school systems are so rigid. And I thought, hey, elementary seems less rigid. I think I can do more of my innovative ideas at that age. So I actually like teaching all age levels. Um, but I believe the right age to start improvisation would be the right age it is for kids to start speaking. So if we believe that English is best learned with kids babbling when they're, I don't know, half a year old, I think that's the same age that kids should be improvising because I see music as a language similar to English. So babbling in music should start as early as possible.
SPEAKER_05You're still babbling away over there. I teach my students to play the notes on the page, and it is improvisation every time because it's usually not what is written. So I feel like I'm doing a great job here. Let's talk about three.
SPEAKER_06Creativity abounds in Christopher's classroom.
SPEAKER_05That's right.
SPEAKER_06So um you've received a lot of recognition, right? Minnesota Teacher of the Year. Chris Scott, Wisconsin Teacher of the Year. When was that? 16? 10 years ago.
SPEAKER_05Decade. I'm old.
SPEAKER_06Um how does this how has this changed your I mean, are you seeing more people in change makers? Is is your megaphone bigger? Are people starting to pay attention more because of that? How is that helping? And are are there challenges with that, to be honest?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I appreciate the question. Um, I'm trying to be intentional. Um, I've been trying to do systemic change work for years now. And now that I have the spotlight on me as teacher of the year, I feel like, okay, like there's a lot of fuel behind this now. So there's a certain amount of pressure of like, okay, this year is like, I really want to build a coalition and make a difference and move that needle. Um so yes, I have been meeting even more people. Um, I'm also on NAFME's Council for Innovations. I'm the Midwest, um, the Midwest representative for that. So I feel like I've met people through that. Um, I'm now getting asked to do like keynotes and visits to other colleges and districts. Um so I feel like um, especially the younger generation of music teachers, what I perceive is they are they have so many innovative, brilliant ideas. Um so I'm try trying to encourage them to like, hey, like I I we desperately need you. Our field needs innovators. And when you enter the field, you're gonna run into a ton of barriers because the system is meant to perpetuate the system. So there's you're gonna meet a ton of gatekeeping barriers that I also met. But please keep going. We need you. Um lean on this coalition of change makers when you're starting to feel frustrated, because we've gone through it too. Um, and my hope, again, is that the more people that make it through the gatekeeping barriers, the eventually the fewer gate gates we'll have.
SPEAKER_04I really enjoyed your story, David, about the accordion player. Because I think it is uh well, um, we all have unique students that teach us things, and uh I clearly that was the one that taught you something um in return. Um and it also shows that you're a flexible teacher, and uh it seems to me like that skill set has served you well um not just before, you know, eight years ago, but um not just eight years ago, but uh in general. Um is that something you care to comment on, just being flexible in general?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, what came to mind first is I just appreciate that reflection. Um, because like I said, it hasn't been easy throughout much of my career. Um so it feels nice to be like seen and like yeah, I I do think that's a skill set I have is not being so rigid and being flexible and trying to put the kids before what feels comfortable to me. Because if I just did what was comfortable to me, I probably wouldn't have changed much as a music teacher.
SPEAKER_04I also note noted that you know, you obviously have deep respect for traditional um instrumental learning. I mean, you you're a classical saxophone player. Come on, I mean come on, yeah. It does not get any more traditional. Right. That's it. Um, and to do it well, you have to be extraordinary. So I you know, I'm sure that that skill, uh, you know, at least the tenacity of what it takes to do that has served you well in um how you're approaching change in your classroom right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I appreciate that too, because like I like I mentioned before, like the the political spectrums and how I think sometimes I'm perceived as being so far. Like he's an innovator, he doesn't care about band. And then personally, like, no, like I do love band. I'm a classical saxphonist, I'm a band kid. I like my whole thing. Yeah, I played on that, like I like it. And both can be true. Like it's a both and not an either or. Like I can love band stuff and still see how the system is not currently set up best for all kids, especially our kids of color and low socioeconomic kids. Like the system is not set up for them.
SPEAKER_05Peter.
SPEAKER_06Who are some musical influences for you that not only led you down the path of the beginning, which might also be traditional, but maybe who are influences that gave you the courage to break forth and do what you're doing and spearhead this?
SPEAKER_02Okay. I thought you might ask that question. So I have a two-part answer. One, there was a professor that totally changed my life in a good way. So I will talk about him. But to be honest, I think most of my lived experience has been learning how I don't want to teach from other people. Um like I've had so many toxic, bad experiences that what I took away was like, oh, I do not want to teach like that. Um I once had a teacher say, you need to yell at the kids more, otherwise they'll never respect you. What? And I was like, uh, I don't think so. Um yeah. So yeah. Um unfortunately, there's not a ton of names that for me personally come up, except for Steve Jordheim, who is the saxophone professor at Lawrence, where I got my undergrad. Um, he really put me on this path because before him, I actively did not want to be a teacher at all. Um, like I really resisted being. I told people I nope, never be a teacher, don't want it. Um, because I wanted to be a world-renowned classical saxophonist. Um, and I kind of had this belief that, like, well, no, I'm gonna be so good that I don't want to lower myself to being a teacher, right? Like, I'm gonna break out and become a real musician. Um and Steve Jordheim said, Yeah, yeah, I hear you. And even as a saxophonist, you're gonna have to give lessons. So you should probably take at least one pedagogy course so you understand a little bit of the science of teaching. And I was like, okay, fine. Um, and that one course completely blew my mind. Um, and I think it's because before that course, I thought teaching was just like intuitive, like people were just like born good teachers. I didn't realize there was a science to teaching. Yes. And he, yeah, he demystified that. He showed, like, oh no, no, there's these things called scaffolding and simplification and modeling and imitation. And then not only like was he like teaching me these things, and my eyes were then I went to my lesson, and then he could show me, he's like, Oh, and see what I'm doing here. I'm isolating this and scaffolding it for you. And like, oh, now I'm gonna demonstrate on my sax phone, and now you try to imitate that same sound you heard. And I was just like, that's how you're getting me to be such a good saxphonist. Like, that's how you're teaching me. You're like, you're an amazing teacher. And it just made me fall in love with pedagogy. And here we are now. I'm like somehow a teacher of the year when I didn't even want to be a teacher. So um, yeah, Steve Jordanheim really uh impacted me at a time in my life when I needed that.
SPEAKER_06That's absolutely beautiful. I mean, I I went through the but I had this moment where I'm like, no, I just want I just want to keep teaching because somebody offered me a graduate program. But then once I started watching student teachers, having student teachers work with our our district, we had a lot of them. I was like, oh you don't all the good teachers came from the same schools. And it almost had to do with their musical ability, it had to do with their reflective ability and the concepts and then thinking behind and being in the room, really being in the room and and having enough bandwidth to pay attention. It was beautiful. And then all I wanted to do was teach teachers because we have to do this better. We have to do this better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Steve did this cool thing where he um had us video record ourselves giving a lesson, like a real lesson to like a beginner. And then we would watch the video and he would like, oh, and like why do you think you were struggling here? And oh, next time I would recommend you demonstrate more rather than just talk at them for 10 minutes. And and that was so helpful because it was me teaching. Uh, I don't know. It's he was a genius pedagog.
SPEAKER_05Speaking of genius, it's now time for a speed round. That's right. Hang on. Here's the thing you live in Minnesota, but what do you know about soda? That's right. We're gonna ask five questions about that fuzz fizzy pop thing. It's what are you talking about? That's a nice pivot. Come on. I thought you were called pop though. Yes, well played.
SPEAKER_06He's gotta take that question out now.
SPEAKER_05Anyone can uh can play along. Here we go. Number one, if you put a can of regular coke and a can of dye coke in a tub of water, what happens? Is it A, they both sink. B, they both float. C, the regular coat coke sinks, but the Diet Coke floats. Or D, they float for exactly 10 seconds, then panic.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna go with they both float. I concur.
SPEAKER_05Philip. Sinky. It is actually C. Regular Coke sinks, but the Diet Coke floats. Really? Yeah, C now.
SPEAKER_06Do you have a reason or did AI just tell you that?
SPEAKER_05No, AI just told me that. Discovery floor computers now have primary control of critical vehicle functions. Number two.
SPEAKER_04I want to say this is fascinating, but uh it's not. It's not fascinating, and I don't actually think it's accurate, but keep going.
SPEAKER_05Why is drinking carbonated uh beverages in space surprisingly difficult, like outer space? A, the bubbles refuse to cooperate because there's no normal buoyancy. B, soda freezes instantly in space. C, the carbonation escapes through the astronaut's helmet, or D, NASA requires all astronauts to drink root beer instead.
SPEAKER_02Wait, so they're they're like in a space station, or they're actually in outer space? Because if they're in outer space, it freezes. Okay. Then I'm gonna go with A, the the one about the bubbles.
SPEAKER_05Yep, you got it. That's exactly right. Phil, did you get that? No, you didn't. Okay, there's only 10 more of these. Uh just a shit?
SPEAKER_06He doesn't know what speed or round means. Keep going, Chris.
SPEAKER_05What was Coca-Cola originally made with that sounds absolutely unbelievable today? A, a small amount of cocoa leaf extract. B, pickle juice, C, powdered marshmallow, or D, ground up pencil shavings.
SPEAKER_02Thought you were gonna say cocaine. Um pickle juice?
SPEAKER_06I'm gonna go with the cocoa leaf extract.
SPEAKER_05Pencil. It was the pet. No, it isn't. It's the small amount of cocoa leaf extract that is true. A. Uh uh. Good try. We got one more of these. Can you believe it? Only one more. Uh I can. Well, that's good. When when soda was first becoming popular, what was it sometimes promoted as? A a medicinal drink, B, a substitute for breakfast, C, a cure for boredom, or D, a treatment for poor dancing? A and D. Correct answer is all of the above. That's right. Congratulations, you got it right. What do you what does he get, Phil? Uh he gets to stop.
SPEAKER_04Get out of this podcast pretty soon, sooner than later.
SPEAKER_05Hey, now you can put that you you survived the Beyond Art List podcast as part of your uh accolades. Uh David, what a uh pleasure to get to know you and meet you. You are definitely a change agent. And I love the fact that you don't take it for face value. And you're doing all of this and you're looking at the system in order to help, especially marginalized students that may not benefit, or well, I won't even say may, that don't benefit from um the way the system is built right now. So I appreciate the work you're doing and stay courageous. You know, we need we need innovative thinkers like you to help push those boundaries. Thank you.
SPEAKER_06You remind me a lot of another Teacher of the Year who was a band director, who's on the on the on the screen, who also is willing to see the right answer and go after it and bring a megaphone along and uh bring people on board. So I'm honored that you're here and I wish you all the best in your continued um change making. And I can't wait to share with my students.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, David, let us know if there's a way that uh we can help amplify your um mission and cause and what you're doing with your students. Uh it's you're really doing incredible work. Um uh and hopefully bringing music to all you know, not only um people who don't normally see it, but people in school who might not see it and in the way that you're presenting it. So thank you. Hey, great guest.
SPEAKER_05Thanks.
SPEAKER_06How did you meet David just through the being a teacher of the year? Now you're all in the same club and have like a uh No.
SPEAKER_05Eric Songa reached out and he said that David had been named and that he had some questions and he thought, you know, for some reason talking to me would help. Uh but so we got talking and it was actually perfect timing because we were just going over the language piece and trying to wrap our heads around this literacy component to the standards, and man, he gave me some great resources and uh yeah, it was.
SPEAKER_06Did you include those? Because I really tried to get more resources out of them, and I just think any resources. I mean, his website's got a ton of resources on it, too. It was really nice. There's some interesting things about that. Well, welcome back. Where were you, Phil?
SPEAKER_05Out and about. Okay. All right. Coach, good to see you.
SPEAKER_03Coach good to be seen. Um, my friend. How did we do tonight? Did we do okay? Peter's frozen right now, but um it's probably a good look for Peter. That was the nicest things you've ever said about me, Peter. Thank you for those kind words. Near the end of that, when you're talking about the teacher of the year thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nice way.
SPEAKER_06A bit of courageous.
SPEAKER_03You were talking about me, right? You weren't talking about him, weren't you?
SPEAKER_06Chris? Yeah, if you look on the chat, I responded to your question. Hell no.
SPEAKER_03We never have a penguin lightning round again. And the same with the soda pop. Never again. That's good stuff.
SPEAKER_04That is good, isn't it? No, it's not. No, it's not. Hey, coach, coach, you often ask Coach, you often offer sort of collective um critique, you know, about the podcast in general. But I think it's time tonight to get specific. So let's narrow it down. Let's give each uh of our hosts like a specific thing that uh they're really fouling up. Let's start with your brother. Yeah, let's start with Chris.
SPEAKER_03I just go back to the lightning round. That's lightning, those good. That's indefensible. There's nothing you can say that is defensible for what you have produced in now. The last two lightning rounds that I've listened of yours have been the penguin one and then the the soda pop one. Terrible. Indefensible. But but you remember them.
unknownOh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I remember the last time I threw up. It's not like that's a good and it was in my mouth when I had to listen to that dingy question.
SPEAKER_07Just no more.
SPEAKER_06Maybe just time about that. Can we can we cut that? And it's a new clip.
SPEAKER_03Uh tuba blues are back on the great guests, and then you ask them these questions that they leave baffled.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Okay, fine. All right, that's fine. I can adapt. I can change. Okay, do Peter next. This is Lightning Next.
SPEAKER_03It shows that Miles has left the house because I think Miles had an influence on the lightning round. And I don't believe that since Miles has left the house, the lightning rounds have gone down to two.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I think that's good to leave me alone. I I do think the alone time's not good for Chris. I think you spent too much time in that room. Too much time that video thing in the beginning is a prime example. We uh okay. Let's fix Peter. All right, get to me. Make me better.
SPEAKER_03Lord, I was born a rambling man.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. A couple of them did get a little long there. A little?
SPEAKER_03It's uh it's you go around the block a couple times, buddy. You know?
SPEAKER_06It's that it's that passion coming back in too many words.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But it's there though. The passion is there.
SPEAKER_04Something's there. Okay, go fill. I think I think I know what Coach is gonna say, but I don't know. But I'm ready. I'm ready. He rambled one of those longer than I did.
SPEAKER_03I'm just gonna say I don't I don't know how you fix perfection.
SPEAKER_07What? Oh god! Did you pay me for this?
SPEAKER_06Oh my god. No good.
SPEAKER_03There's obviously one person on this podcast that kind of stands above the wet rest, and they're questioning and many other things, and it's obviously Phil. Humor, Phil, questioning, Phil.
SPEAKER_04Now, my favorite moments on the podcast where I have a fail are when I'm like halfway through a sentence and I have utterly no idea how to complete it. We're good.
SPEAKER_06Just no idea where like mine are long, but I start talking, I just go back too far thinking anybody needs to know that information. But you just start talking, and then like you're like a salmon. I think I'm going to play. Some little happening in there where he's improvising as he goes because it's true. I know I can get this to work.
SPEAKER_03Just keep hitting it with a stick. Yeah. Hey, I do have an idea. And Peter actually played to it here just moments ago. Here's the idea. Can you, my dear brother, build some sort of resource for all of the rest of us that contains some of the things alluded to or mentioned in the podcast. And I know you say you put it in the show notes, but I don't check the show notes. I I need another, I need a beyond the art list resource page. I need a beyond the art list resource page that you can put some of the things. You're muted. No, he's just talking quietly. Oh.
SPEAKER_07But we need a beyond there.
SPEAKER_03Beyond the arts, art list media page or resource page that contains some of these things. You you referenced some reading. Uh what was that, Peter? You mentioned a book in the first episode.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, Teaching Rhythm, David Newell.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that was I'll put my favorite Grisham novels in there. Yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_06So the I So I think this is a great idea, Coach, like many of your ideas. Um, but I will also say, like, he's just gonna go through the Buzz Sprout page, pull all of the things, and then he's gonna put them on another Buzz Sprout page. Yeah, and then you're gonna get there. I don't know if that's quite what I'm looking for. Or maybe we could put it on the Beyond the Notes page. We could we could pull people to your uh actual website.
SPEAKER_05I'll uh you know what? I will talk to our webmaster and uh ask ask the webmaster to get this done. Oh gosh. I've been I've been wanting to reach out to that person for a while. Yes. I'm gonna I'm gonna get right on that and uh it's good assistant to the regional manager and see if they can they can work on that for you, coach. Okay. I appreciate that. Where's your head out of the guide six?
SPEAKER_04I called that assistant regional manager before I got put on hold. Didn't like it. No, just hold for a long time.
SPEAKER_05I'm a little dismayed the hat didn't make an appearance tonight. The coach hat.
SPEAKER_03The hat is oh I I'm I'm apologizing for not wearing the hat. Next time I'll bring the hat. That's good. The hat, the hat is uh that is something I that's speechless. Yeah, I'm I have no words for that hat. Thank you. It's a gift that keeps on giving.
SPEAKER_05It is from the heart.
SPEAKER_06It is this is my favorite segment. I think and I think by the way, I'm gonna try to do a speed run. It's only like three or four questions next time. Just a smaller speed run.
SPEAKER_04I have no I have my trend with the speed round has been to compress. I think that's a wise choice. Because halfway through it you realize it wasn't a good idea.
SPEAKER_06That's that's that is all of this is actually very true. That thought like why the hell am I asking this person about South Dakota? Nobody cares about this.
SPEAKER_05We should use that we should use that same logic for the show itself. Just compress it because the diet the diet coke. Baby steps baby steps.
SPEAKER_06The Diet Coke Coke thing. I still don't think that's true. I think you make it. It's a project garbage.
SPEAKER_03The diet coke floating.
SPEAKER_04That's in. That's for real. I'm still lamenting the front rear rear wheel real front wheel, rear wheel drive, forklift question. Yes. That was that was a just left. That was a deep regret. Deep regret over that question.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Well, you're asking is really working well, I gotta tell you.
SPEAKER_04It's always great seeing this person, this person that's agreed to come on to do a burst room at the end and then say, hey, nice hustle reward.
SPEAKER_06Get out there. Yeah, yeah. Leave them on a high note. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04I will say, here's here's the big improvement is that uh our guests just keep getting better and better in terms of I agree. I mean, that's why the people listen don't listen to hear us.
SPEAKER_06No, they listen for you, Peter. They're they're all in it for you. I know that's not true. Because anybody says to me they listen to the podcast, like I listen to the podcast, and then they tell me about the things it's never about me. And I'm like, oh no. No. No. Thanks.
SPEAKER_04Uh exit ticket, Chris? Exit ticket? Where is it?
SPEAKER_05I uh see, right here. I put a reminder for myself.
SPEAKER_06That's notice for your podcast, do an exit ticket. Obviously, that's here it is. Here's the exit ticket.
SPEAKER_04Coach coach, coach, give us one thing uh for our next podcast that we need to uh uh something we gotta do. So many things.
SPEAKER_03Get that I want I want that I'm I'm going back to that resource. I want that website.
SPEAKER_04I want to beyond art list laundry list.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I want an access point. I want to be able to get to that the rhythm book. I want to see those reading podcasts. Come on. All right. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Uh we should we should have that done by what February 2029?
SPEAKER_06I think that's a good, that's a good, you know, goal. When we're sitting at the Midwest booth thinking, why are we here doing this again? We'll create that list. That's right. Because no one else will be there.
SPEAKER_05That's right. If you want to leave your jackets at the uh Midwest, you just come to our booth. This is what we're offering. Uh everyone, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_06But if we if we go back to that place next to the pole, so we actually had two for the price of one, we could just take people's coats for money and then just throw them in a pile and be like, which coat is yours? Hold on. Is it this? This looks good. No, is it this looks good? That'll fit, it'll fit. Just squeeze in there.
SPEAKER_03I could come down, I could come down and be your coat guy.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I could just be in charge of coats.
SPEAKER_06Now this is a small business opportunity.
SPEAKER_03And I would work for tips.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. And just general encouragement.
SPEAKER_04Please, God, please, God, tell me this segment is ending soon. This is just gonna cut this. Please make it out. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_06Workless banter. You won't cut it, that takes work.
SPEAKER_05Beyond Artless is sponsored by Beyond the Notes Music Festival. Our mission is to create and provide profound learning and social experiences through music that go beyond the notes. Visit Btn Music Festival dot com to learn more.
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