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beyond ArtLess
“Beyond ArtLess" with Chris Gleason, Peter Haberman & Phil Ostrander is a podcast that explores the friendships and the community that exists in and outside of the arts and arts education. In each episode of Beyond ArtLess, one of the hosts reveals his mystery guest to the other two. What comes next is a fun-filled conversation revealing the joy of friendship and the artlessness of the hosts. Unlike most successful classrooms, this show is not well planned and probably not worth your time.
beyond ArtLess
Randy Swiggum
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What happens when deep commitment to music education, trailblazing pedagogy, and the pursuit of artistry come together in one remarkable career? You get Randy Swiggum, nationally recognized conductor, clinician, author, and leader in Comprehensive Musicianship through Performance (CMP). From Carnegie Hall to the Madison Metropolitan School District, where he currently serves as an Arts Teacher Leader, Randy has spent his career inspiring young musicians and challenging educators to rethink what great teaching can be. This week, we dig into relationships, emotional intelligence, music advocacy, and the neuroscience of music. We also explore 50 years of CMP as well as the upcoming State Music Conference featuring Dr. Anita Collins, Dr. Cecil Adderley, and Dr. Tim Lautzenheiser. Randy brings plenty of wisdom, perspective, and a reminder that three hosts still have a LOT to learn.
Learn More About Randy Here
- https://www.foxvalleyartshalloffame.org/inductees/swiggum
- https://www.carnegiehall.org/Education/Programs/Music-Educators-Workshop/Summer-Program
Wisconsin State Music Conference Register Below!
Comprehensive Musicianship through Performance (CMP)
Anita Collins Links
- https://youtu.be/R0JKCYZ8hng?si=_YtkAUPbh8iwXqX4
- https://www.ted.com/talks/anita_collins_the_benefits_of_music_education
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EMOhcsoLy0
- https://www.anitacollinsmusic.com.au/
Recording Credits
Hey Coach- This Is A Show Note
https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/podcast
REGISTER NOW:
2027 BEYOND THE NOTE FESTIVALS - A few spots remain!!
https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/festivals/ensembles/kalahari-1
COMMISSION POSSIBLE 2028 W/ OMAR THOMAS
https://www.btnmusicfestival.com/education/commission
I think that people could jump out and then recording. I'm thinking about jumping out at any moment. Chris, you're allowed to join us whenever you it's comfortable for you. Whenever you feel you know you're ready.
SPEAKER_03He just left. I wasn't expecting that.
SPEAKER_02Oh, community. It is good to see my good friends. Uh Peter and eventually Chris. He'll give a nap when he wants. Um tell me about going well. Right. So I made everybody raise their right hand today, and I was like, let's we're gonna make a promise, you know, because with the exception of the trumpets, with the exception of the trumpets, I promise to protect. I promise to protect the melody. But the trumpets didn't need protection. They were getting through loud and clear, a little too clear. So I made them all promise to protect the melody except for the trumpets. That's my funny story. Ha ha.
SPEAKER_03Wow, I expected that to be a lot funnier, I'm gonna be honest. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02Well, all right, anyways.
SPEAKER_03When I make them raise a right hand, it's it's it's it's a long, it's a long conversation. Again, keep talking, it's a thing. They still like making fun of the trumpets.
SPEAKER_02I made them feel good. I mean, that's yeah, that's easy. And the trumpets like any kind of attention negative, positive, it doesn't matter. You know, trombone's all attention.
SPEAKER_03I mean, this is this is the thing. That's how it works. We are all middle schoolers.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I did ask I did ask the Tromone section to sound slightly less inebriated today, too. Are they able to do that? Well, it's a big like glissy stuff, but it's gotta be like metric. Like the glissadas have to be like in the pocket.
SPEAKER_04Um with uh with Aaron's fifth graders, I use that same line. And it works really well. It's a good line. Yeah, teacher of the year is what we're talking about. I have news. I have news to share with you. Um when my brother comes on this show and uh he comes as the coach, you know, he transforms himself into coach and uh dons his cap, which he got for his birthday, that says coach uh beyond the notes, and he gives us something to do, then golly gee whiz, I do it. I stayed up all night to create a repository on our website. You did not. I did it up right now. What is our containing? I'm going to right to it right now. So go right to the website, and I want you to find under educational programs, you will find Beyond Artless Podcasts. Oh, what? Okay. So go EducationPods. We got to go beyond the podcast.
SPEAKER_03Go to Beyond the Notes, not the best podcast. So BTN Music.
SPEAKER_04Educational Programs. Educational Programs. Here we go. Okay, and then go beyond the notes or beyond the Artless Podcast. And then I want you to scroll down just a little ways, and you're gonna see.
SPEAKER_03Go to the episodes, find amazing resources in the show notes. Do we have to click on that? No. Nope. That's all it is, is right there.
SPEAKER_04That's that's what I did.
SPEAKER_06That's all you did?
SPEAKER_04Yes, where is it? God damn it, it's already in the show notes. I am not creating another thing for this show. So, coach, you can shove it up your butt. It's already in the show notes. Look at the show notes.
SPEAKER_03You made us look at something that doesn't even Okay.
SPEAKER_04This is really now his face is on the website and it says, if you want the stuff, go to the show notes. Am I loud enough?
SPEAKER_02Am I saying this loud enough for you, Phil? It's coming through. I don't know how happy the coach will be about this, but uh I know we're gonna hear about that in the next halftime. This could be an ongoing discussion. It seems to me like it might be a little bit of a sibling argument, potentially.
SPEAKER_04This is uh this brotherly love going on right now. So that's the thing I have to say about that.
SPEAKER_03And I'm uh we got a comment this week that people like the banter and that we shouldn't be we shouldn't be dissing the banter.
SPEAKER_05What? Can you believe this?
SPEAKER_02Yes, one listener did provide feedback um explicitly uh um asking for less uh negative feedback regarding the banter. Felt that we the banter was being um needlessly abused. Okay. I can't believe Miles would say such a thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Miles doesn't comment and he doesn't listen. But here's the thing I took that to heart. I saw that textual message from you, Phil, and I knew it wasn't AI, so I did something tonight. I'm going to embrace the banter by showing you this video, which I found tonight, which I think is hilarious. This is a reporter and and commuter. I know you can't see this, but I will put this in the show notes. Where am I gonna put it? Hey, coach, where am I putting it? I'm putting it in the frickin' show notes. Go to the show notes. Here goes, this is gonna be can you hear that?
SPEAKER_06Because you know what you don't get very banter may have hit a new low by trying to ex to uh Well, you know, the magic of editing um can really just take the event.
SPEAKER_03Should we go to like a and then say about the in the Susaphone?
SPEAKER_02That's that's good stuff. That's again indicative of a person spending too much time in their basement on their computer. Yes, you've got to get out of that room more.
SPEAKER_04This is the only room I'm in all day long. Don't show me the room.
SPEAKER_03It's fine. Yeah for guests today. Um their school spelling B in both the seventh and eighth grade years. Their winning word in eighth grade was laconic.
SPEAKER_04Laconic.
SPEAKER_03Uh this person in first grade uh was made to take piano lessons by their mom, hated it with the uh Sunday school teacher lady, uh made the mom let them quit lessons. Um, and then suddenly the summer before eighth grade year, they decided no, I want piano lessons, I want to be a music teacher. And mom never let them forget that she was right seven years earlier. And like, you remember this? Just the irony and wouldn't let it go. Uh, but this person was so good that by their eighth grade year, right? They just started right before that. Um that they in their school. I have no idea what laconic means, by the way. I'm out on that. Um read the show. Hopefully they do. We can ask our guests, we can ask our guest, okay? They were in 4-H, woodworking, horrible at it. Horrible at it. But you know what they excelled at? Like my Blueberry Muffins? Puppetry. Puppetry. Amazing at puppetry. They made the theater, the puppets, they wrote the script, they made songs, it was a musical. It's like a pet rock. It was a lot to ask about that. I'm getting a sneaking suspicion here. Keep going. Okay. Uh football player in high school, but quit to be a drum major. Um, went to drum major camp, came home, whipped their little marching band into shape. Uh, learned that whole backbend thing, remember, with the big thing? Yeah, that can hurt.
SPEAKER_04You gotta be.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that can hurt. And then uh not really a band person anymore at at all. Um gonna be an entertainer in the nursing home any three years, they've decided they're gonna they're gonna make that jump. Uh their very first concert, you know, they were they decided, well, I mean, uh, I'm doing a my first concert. I'm 22 years old, uh, so I have to do a choral orchestral master work. So they did this piece, and of course the choir and the orchestra start splitting apart because you know, it's our first year teaching you. This is what they do. And of course the text ironically meant that they were singing in Latin. God, hurry quickly to help me. Which is what you're sweet. We're we're feeling a lot, right? Right, right. I like it. Yeah, they had to stop, they whispered, you know, whatever, 87, and then they started. Audience had no idea, they just thought it was in two movements. This person uh grew up in Mount Horeb, uh, Wisconsin. Have a music education undergrad, uh conducting masters, um, PhD in musicology, voice, violin, piano, conducting, all fields. As a public school teacher, they've gone on to achieve national and international recognition as a teacher, conductor, clinician. They've conducted a Carnegie Hall, the Ravinia Festival. They've been in Europe, Asia, South America, United States. Um, the Hall of Fame has made them the youngest inductees, says an unusually dedicated, imaginative, and creative musician and teacher. They don't teach, they live arts education every minute and has dedicated their life to uh and talents to inspiring learning at every level. Are you reading this? Or is this coming straight from the hush? This is straight. This person has been an education conductor of many orchestras across the country. They've been a guest in U.S., Seoul, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Budapest, Prague, all over Europe, recently conducted. Are you just naming random countries now? National Youth Symphony in Glasgow and the Milwaukee Symphony, right? Okay. Now you're gonna know who they are, and I will let you introduce them. Uh in 1998, they were appointed conductor of the Elgin Youth Symphony Orchestra and also have worked with the Elgin Symphony Orchestra. They are co-authored, shaping sound musicians, comprehensive musicianship, and band choir and orchestra, along with many other books. Uh they are now the arts teacher leader for the Madison School District. Christopher, this is none other than Randy Swigum, bring him on, let's do it. Here we go.
SPEAKER_04Randy's swiggle, giving him great choice. There's our guy.
SPEAKER_03Great, great choice. When did you find out, Christopher? When did you know it was him?
SPEAKER_04When you came on tonight. Shut up. The moment your camera came on, I'm like, Randy's on tonight. So Mount Horrob? Or what was it? Oh, yeah, Mount Horrob was that's that was it. But I remember you telling me the story about the group dividing. I knew it. The battery was on. I'm like, yeah, I think I know who that was.
SPEAKER_01So the the levels of banter. I mean, the banter before the banter, before the banter, that was priceless. We just do the whole banter again, like every story, the whole thing. Claire, Lydia, everything. Redo the whole thing.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_04Hi guys. No.
SPEAKER_01Have you seen the rocks? I want to see the rocks again. The rocks, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Just don't play that damn video again. Man, that video was rough.
SPEAKER_04The video was good. He lost the microphone that was good shtick.
SPEAKER_03Come on. Randy. Randy, you know when uh music humor in like a music building is like funny to all the music students, but then they like share it with somebody who's not a music student and falls flat because it's actually not funny. They've just been in the music building too long.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you're talking about our podcast. Yeah, that's true. There's some truth in that.
SPEAKER_01Me too, so what? Chris, Chris, I was talking to Simon today about this event that we're currently in. And I was saying to Simon, like, I'm gonna be their first not funny guest ever, and they're gonna be like, Can we edit the whole thing out? I mean, do we have to even include it? And so we were talking about funny stories, and Simon's like, Oh, you have so many funny stories. And then we were kind of enjoying them together. You know, he lives in Montreal, and we're talking on the phone. And um I said, Well, how about the time where and he said, Yeah, that was one where you have to be there. And that's one where like the the kids have to know you. He said, Don't share, don't share that on the air. I said, See, I'm hopeless. I'm hopeless. Yeah, it lets it right in. I do have to say one thing though, guys. First of all, my deepest respect for all of you and for the efforts that you put forth here. And I listen to a lot of podcasts, and this one is definitely one of them. Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say fast approaching your top 15. Yeah. Maybe.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04When it shows up on Spotify as your number one, then then we'll talk. But uh until that moment, Randy Swiggham.
SPEAKER_01Hey, we are in the I'm surprised that I even made it on here ever because 96.2 percent of your guests are banned people and or or they're Patty Schlafer retired from Mount Horror. I don't I don't fit any of the criteria. Um so I'm it's like either you guys are just getting to the bottom of the barrel and the podcast is breathing its last gasp, like okay, I guess I've been hoping for this for years.
SPEAKER_02Can't kill it.
SPEAKER_01It just keeps coming back. Well, maybe we can kill it faster if we pull Randy Swiggum on the podcast. Not at all. No, this is great. Not at all.
SPEAKER_03So uh you're here because you are an amazing musician and educator. And you know, let me just start with this. Uh why is Chris Gleason great?
unknownYeah. That's right.
SPEAKER_03That's exactly right. He tells the story himself about lighting a fire, and that came from you.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that came from Patty Schlafer. Yeah. But I was probably in the room, right? You were definitely.
SPEAKER_03Well, there's another one he tells about you that uh helped you realize that you're filled they're not a bucket or something. There's something else that you say it all the time about Randy and inspired you was through CMP, your first CMP experience or something about that.
SPEAKER_04Oh man. No, it it uh there is going to the CMP workshop is is is is life-changing. I mean, I know that seems hyperbolic and just like over the top, but it literally changed my teaching um life. But I being on that committee though, surrounded by these amazing educators, uh has elevated my thinking, my pedagogy. I mean, just imagine you're you're teaching in front of these amazing teachers, and they don't scold you, they don't come up and say, you know, you shouldn't have done that. It's Randy who will come up and say, I noticed this. And he just puts it out there, but that's what a master teacher does. He taught me how to ask really good questions and how to lead me to better understanding. And I I I will forever be grateful for that because he uh any success I've had literally has come from him and the other members who have uh have really helped me to become a better teacher.
SPEAKER_01Okay, the question is why you're here, Randy. It's it's a legit question because Chris has something that a lot of teachers do not have, and that is like you can you can actually be talk straight to him about like it would be better if, and he doesn't hold a grudge or take it personally or whatever. He's like, okay, I'm gonna try that. And I remember I just had a memory of you in our kitchen right here in this house when you were working on your uh teacher of the year thing. I don't know if it was competitive and you were feeling like I got I gotta be the best, I gotta whatever, but you were you were running through it, and I'm like, you gotta switch this part. This you gotta take this part. I mean, I was pretty ruthl ruthless, right, with like how this would work. Because I saw the potential and I thought, oh, he's gonna be good at this. But I was pretty I was pretty ruthless with you. So I'm not sure that's a yeah. I'm not sure that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_03Chris is one of the best teachers because of that. He's not only willing to change, he's willing to take suggestion, and he doesn't if it's for the kids and it's to make it better, he's all in.
SPEAKER_02Well, a lot of big swings, a lot of big misses, it's good. Babe Ruth, baby. He's Babe Ruth of music education.
SPEAKER_01We're having a shirt.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, you know, I got quite a few t-shirts. Rainey, let me ask you this question. You're in a role now with uh MMSD, uh with Madison Metropolitan School District, where you get to serve in a role where you get to watch art educators, music educators, and uh working through their own pedagogy. How do you help develop that with other teachers? You know, what things have you learned along the way now in this new role?
SPEAKER_01Oh man, that's that's a whole nother episode um of this podcast. I think I have one quick answer to your question, Chris, and that's planning. I'm just trying to get young teachers to plan, right? And I don't know about where you guys live, but I don't feel like our system is set up to encourage anyone to plan. It's sort of like you have six minutes here and eight minutes here, and then you've got your weekend and your summer. Um and there's no time during the day to plan. So we're basically saying we think you should be able to do this without planning, and that is that's killing us. True.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so you're note. D minor chord, and then we all just go home. The saddest of all keys.
SPEAKER_03Um tell me what you would say to your younger self, if not to the mentors uh that you guide each day. What would you say to your younger self now to maybe give yourself something you needed then?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. You know, you have asked that question to so many guests, so I kind of saw it. Still looking for a good answer. Yeah, I know. I kind of saw it coming. And I I really thought about it um because I I assumed you were going to ask me this question. And I I don't have a lot of regrets, actually. I don't live with a lot of regrets. So there's not a lot of things that I think, oh, if I had only known this, because I felt like, well, that's where I was at at that time. Like I was 23, so that's what a 23-year-old does and thinks. And I could do things then that I can't do now, and vice versa. So I thought, am I even gonna have a good answer? This is gonna be another moment that kills the episode, right? Because I'm not gonna have a really thoughtful answer. However, I did think of this. I think my gift of emotional intelligence, like being able to read the room or knowing I'm losing the freshman, like what whatever, I think that was a that's a gift, right? To be able to kind of see how things are working and which kids are you're losing, which kids are are right with you. But I think what comes along with that sometimes, and in my case, definitely, is a little being a little thin-skinned or taking things personally. And I think as a young teacher, I wish somebody had said, like, look, you just can't take anything personally. Uh, even that kid that's like acting out, that's not about you. That's you're just you happen to be in the line of fire. So uh when a parent is upset or whatever, like, yeah, you gotta take responsibility, right? I heard Margaret say, Chris, you'll get a kick out of this, say to a young teacher, she's like, I have to figure out like what's my fault and what's just on the kid. And Margaret said, It's always your fault. Even when it's the kid's fault, it's your fault, right? Everything is your fault. So but that made me, I think, I'm a little more sensitive and um a little more thin skinned than I needed to be.
SPEAKER_03So I do think our experience is our best teacher, but some people have that experience and decide they're done, and others resp reflect and respond and change. And I think that's a uh because I wouldn't take anything back, including the stupid things I did in my first couple years. Um because I learned from that, but others just left. And I wonder if maybe there's a disposition of teachers and resiliency or something that they're willing, or maybe it's that reflection skill. Have you noticed that when you work at MMSD?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Uh we uh I think we're getting better at looking for young teachers that kind of look that way. They, you know, like I'm just gonna say it, like kids that have been athletes sometimes they just already understand that like you can't get good at something over a weekend and you just have to put in the time. Or kids that um that are playing at a really high level on their instrument, they seem to understand that like this just takes time to get better. And if I can just reference that with them and say, like, look, nobody nobody is a great teacher the first week, even the first year. And I remember it last year with the first two teachers at the end of the year, and they're all just like Ugh, this is really a rough year. And I said, Right, you're gonna be amazed at the first day of your second year how much better it is. And they're like, Why is that? And I said, 'Cause the kids all look at you and they're like, what, you came back? And automatically you have uh Like you have them in a way that you don't the first yeah, you have street cred. Because they really are, they're just looking for some adult who's gonna stick with them. And I said, that's half the battle right there. So just come back a second year and you're gonna be amazed how much better it is.
SPEAKER_03And I like I remember how um I remember how long it took me to actually feel like I was teaching in my first year, both because of my inadequacies, but also I didn't know any of their names. And I didn't, you know what I mean? And I was just learning and we were doing the thing. But the second year, like the first day, they just knew how we started class and we just played. And I was like, oh my God, I know all their names. They already know what to do. Oh my God, to edit everything instead of create everything. Oh good question, Peter. Great question. Shut up. It was a good feeling. I haven't thought about that in a long time.
SPEAKER_02Randy, honestly, I have a question.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I had a question for you, but you finish your state, finish your idea. No, I think I mean what Peter's saying is basically like this really obvious thing, but we got to keep rethinking it. Is it it's all about the relationship. What you just described, like that chemistry between you and the kids, like you can't do that with AI. You can't do that with like Khan Academy. It has to be like an adult who has spent time with kids, watch them puke, you know, watch them break up with their girlfriend, you know, all that stuff. And that's I mean, that's not really teaching, but that is walking alongside kids. And honestly, we we get so used to that as teachers that we forget that is sort of the point.
SPEAKER_02Brandy, give um our com our commuter, our two people listening, um two more ideas about how to connect with students. Like just right out of the gate.
SPEAKER_01Um you want the quick tricks or do you want the deeper things? I mean, what are you what are you thinking, Phil? I'm pretty low lowbrow here.
SPEAKER_03I mean easy fruit, easy fruit, low-hanging fruit. Um give us some tricks.
SPEAKER_02No, well, or just or just talk more about connecting with students.
SPEAKER_01That's what I want. I want you to talk more about it. Yeah, I mean, okay, there's whole books on this. Uh, but I will say this one time. I was a young teach I was a young teacher who um I really liked my students like on day one, and they liked me on day one. I had a very interesting first year as a high school teacher because I the kids mostly knew me because I had come along as a chaperone with them uh on their fall retreat retreat with the with a previous teacher, not the immediate previous teacher. So they all kind of liked me because I was a cool college kid and I was the their cool uh new teacher. Um but my colleagues, all of whom were like my parents' age, they would watch me and they'd be like, I I could tell there was a little bit of like uh, you know, like no first teacher should be this popular. Um and they they supported me. They they were in a sense they were happy for me, but there was still a sense of like he's not paying his dues, he's not having the rough first year that you're supposed to have, you know, that whole thing. Um and I remember a few years in, someone said, What is your deal? How do you get kids to do just anything that you want them to? What's the secret? And I had never thought about it. And that moment I thought about it, and I've stuck with this. This is like 40 years. I thought to myself, and I realized, I think it's because I actually really like them. Like I don't pretend to like them. I actually like them. And a kid who feels like some grown-up likes them will do anything, almost anything for them. And as long as they're not their parent. Right, exactly. It doesn't, it doesn't feel very pedagogical, but I think it is the truth. Yeah. What I've had to work on though, this is maybe the part two. You're looking for two things, Phil. Part two is like, you gotta get better at liking the kids that you don't like. And that's the that's the hard thing. But do I have to, Dad? Yeah, you kind of do.
SPEAKER_02But I think inherently there are things to like in every child, even the one that is the biggest thorn in the world. There is something. Just kidding. I'm just kidding. There is something. Oh, I'd be pretty thorny.
SPEAKER_03Or I was as a kid, that's for sure. But to go back, you're right, it it's always your fault, right? Like it's you, it's you, it's always your fault. And if there's something that relationship isn't right, you've got to steer that.
SPEAKER_02Um tell us more, Randy, about like a thorny ch uh student that you had over the years.
SPEAKER_01Without a name. Yeah. So, oh, I'll just I I have not had a lot of thorny students, to be honest. Um, but I remember, I remember uh one. Well, there's two funny stories. These were two different kids in two different high schools, kind of the same personality and two different uh young women. They were both seniors. One of them was we were doing the we were studying the mass, right? Like the classic mass. And we were doing like a Kiri from one composer and a Gloria from another composer, just to learn a bunch of styles, but also to see kind of how the mass was constructed. And the Cradle, you know, the Cradle gets kind of it's kind of Jesus-y. Um so when you have where I was teaching in White Fish Bay, I had a real diversity of students, right? Lots of religious diversity. And there was a student who just felt at this point that we should not be singing the cradle, like the other sacred music, fine or whatever. And uh she came in and she was like she'd prepared her speech, she'd written down her notes, she sat down in my office and shut the door and gave me her whole spiel. And I looked at her and I said, I think you're right. I think we should pull this piece. We had only started it like it's like three days or whatever. I said, I think you're right. I don't think we should do the piece. And she looked at me and she said, Do you have an answer for everything? Uh she she was You just got what you wanted. Yeah, she was mad because she wanted to fight about it, right? And I was like, I think you're right. Actually, I think I'm gonna pull and I I learned a really good lesson. I actually filed it with an apology and said, I think I was a bad, I think it was an unwise choice or whatever. Um I another school uh I did a similar thing. I added having a pencil every day as part of the grade, which is of course, that's just stupid. It has nothing to do with music education. But in a school where or in an orchestra where nobody was bringing pencils to anything ever, it was, you know, a daily check thing. And she came in and boom, hand on my desk and said, I can't believe you are requiring us to have a I don't I can't believe you're grading us having a pencil. And I said, I can't believe I am either, frankly. So until everybody starts doing it, it that's the way it's gonna be. And she said something similar to it. It was kind of a this is like maybe 15 years later. She's like, Do you have an answer for everything? I'm like, I kind of do. That's my that's my job as my job.
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SPEAKER_03Visit Grand Tours Online at Grand Tours Inc.com. That's Grand ToursINC.com to learn more about their services and request an international tour design specifically for your ensemble. Can't get enough of me? Not sick of me yet? Come get your master's degree in music education with me at Concordia College in Moorhead, Minnesota. We offer a hybrid degree plan so you can keep teaching and getting paid and still have an in-person cohort in the summers to enrich your experience and learn a lot from others as well. Already have your masters? Prank your less educated colleagues by sending them my way. You got students? Ship those beautiful children off to Moorhead. We want your music majors, your non-majors, good kids, bad kids, smart kids, and everything in between. Music scholarships here are available for all students with an annual deadline of February 1st. Info about all these options and more can be found at Concordiacollege.edu slash music. That's Concordiacollege.edu slash music. Or just contact me and I'll take care of it.
SPEAKER_04So, Randy, you are the current W M EA president, and when this comes out, it's going to be getting pretty close to the uh the conference time. So, what are you most excited about about the conference specifically and why should people go?
SPEAKER_01Thank you for asking that. I like I I was taking a mental break from thinking about the conference because it's like nice words. I think about all day, every day. Thank you very much, Chris, for reminding me that um I'm getting too little sleep. Um this conference I think is going to be really amazing. You know, I know you guys are thinking about advocacy, and I don't really have a lot of background in advocacy, but the last couple of years I have had to get up to speed as the president-elect of WMEA. Your job is to be the advocacy chair. So I've really been rubbing shoulders with people that are really good at advocacy and have been thinking about it. So I've learned a lot. And I've also gotten really interested, and you've had some guests, I know, I'll talk about neuroscience of music and stuff. So I'm really excited I chose as the theme um music minds, bigger minds, and just really looking at um, you know, there's a m million reasons to do music that have nothing to do with neuroscience. Music is just uh music for music's sake is worth it, right? But knowing that like we're kind of hardwired evolutionarily, like anthropologists know this and neuroscientists know this, like there's something about us that that we have always we've we just have always needed and used music. So I decided to make that the theme of the conference, and I've gotten so much feedback from people who are like, this is really great. So the simple answer to your question, we have Dr. Anita Collins coming to this conference, and she's the one who did that famous video that's viral still, it's like 17 million views. How playing an instrument benefits your brain. That was her. She wrote that whole thing and created that whole video. Um she has an organization called Bigger Better Brains, and she's um she's just amazing because she knows everything about like why why a kid who can keep a steady beat at age three and four is gonna be a grade ahead in reading. And it is not pedagogical, it's neurological. That's what I always say. So I'm cool, I'm excited about that. Uh Tim Lautzenheiser is gonna be there this year, and uh we have Cecil Adderly, who's our uh NAFME national president, is gonna be there, and then of course gajillion sessions and the honors concerts and stuff like that. But I think this focus on the neuroscience of music, which I'm sure some people like oh hum, you know, big yawn about that, but it's it's it's so interesting once you start seeing like how we are hardwired for this. So that's what I'm excited about.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, couldn't agree more. It's great stuff. And needed right now, too. I mean, we talk about advocacy, and it uh I mean, boy, when you talk about how it changes you physically and how we need it, especially more than ever now. So it's good stuff.
SPEAKER_01Uh well I remember Chris when you used to talk about myelin, you know, you used to like use that to get people to think about how to get kids to practice. Does he still talk about myelin? Oh my god, he never shuts up about that damn shit. Constantly. It's what's funny about that is like that was the first time I saw like one of my colleagues actually using science to make a case for anything in music. And that that's like 10 years ago that Chris got on that train. So that train.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Still on it.
SPEAKER_03All right, I'm ready to ask a good question. You ready? Good question. Go for it. Watch this. Can't wait. Okay. I'll ask the question. Thanks, Peter. Um Randy, uh Peter. When did you first describe CMP for those that may not know? And then my question to you is why did you write the book? Or did the book come first, or was you are were people already doing this, and then you wrote the book to help advocate for this process of learning and bringing your students through the process of music learning, like chicken or egg, and then you know, tell us more about CMP and how that all works for you.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, there's there's some mythology in what you just said, because I did not write the book. Um the book that we're referring to that's yeah, well, it's uh a lot of it was my work, and there is stuff in there that says right away this is written by Randy, whatever. Um, but really the n when it was published, the name that appeared was Patty O'Toole because Patty O'Toole really put it together and and did write a lot of it. And she was on the CMP project at that time, so you know, one of my best friends. Um I've I've done a lot of writing about CMP over the years, but um I did not I wasn't there at the beginning of CMP. I was like Chris. I was sort of transformed by the by the movement. It's just that I I was a few years ahead of Chris because you know, I'm a lot older than Chris. Even though he looks all the way to the city. That's weird because Chris is a lot older.
SPEAKER_04He looks a lot older than Randy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, so I mean, who knows better than you two? I think you're I think you're being kind. I mean, he's got to get out of that room. He's got to get out of that room. It's really starting to affect his mental health.
SPEAKER_05So it's fine.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, but uh you know, I was a I was uh uh an early adopter of CMP because it was only like 10, 15 years old when I got pulled into its orbit. And that was through Gary Wolfman and Mike George and kind of the the first generation. I call them the first generation of CMPers, Jan Tweed, those guys. Um and then I w I'm sort of like the second generation, and I think Chris, you're like 2.5. The the book really was just to answer your question finally, to get back to that, Peter. The book was really just we knew that we needed to get some of this stuff in a place that we could hand to people because the only way people learned about the CMP um planning model was to come to the workshop. Um and we were like, yeah, you know, we we gotta have a bigger reach than that. And we were all writing a lot, and this is kind of almost before the internet, and so we just decided a book would be the the way to get the word out. Now, I you know, John Stewart's dissertation was on CMP. There's a lot of um, there's a lot of uh PhD and master's theses on CMP now. Um, and we're Chris knows we're working on the second edition, which is gonna be quite different than the first book. It's gonna share the same title, but it's it's a very, very different book. Um, even though the CMP model hasn't changed, we're living in a different world now in 2026 than in 2003. I mean, it's like almost 25 years ago.
SPEAKER_04So and Randy, just you know, uh let's just uh kind of give some perspective on this though, too. We're about to celebrate the 50th anniversary of CMP. You know, you've been such an influence on this entire project. I mean, honestly, you've seen and and due to your hard work have really created a lot of the benefits that that folks are seeing today. In fact, folks have called CMP kind of the gift of music education in in Wisconsin. And what does that mean to you personally as you see this come around now, the 50th anniversary?
SPEAKER_01Well, uh it's like you know, you you guys are in this camp as well, even though you joke around all the time. You know that there are just some deeper things that have to be hung on to. And CMP has become one of those things for me, it it's like watching uh a simple but profound model for planning that hasn't lost its edge. You know, it's still it still is robust, it still does the job the way it was intended when it was built in 1977. I mean, you guys have all been in education long enough to know that like 1977, that's like Paleozoic in in education. I mean, what do we have left from the 70s? We've got Bloom's taxonomy and a few other things, but mostly in education, things don't last that long. And the fact that the CMP model still can make a teacher cry with like how how it really shapes, can shape their their teaching and their planning. So that's what means so much to me is that it still works. And I'm I haven't ever gotten bored with it. Like I still I mean, honestly, I gotta tell you, I just had a conversation with a colleague today where I had a new insight about CMP that I've never thought about. And it it was about skill outcomes because um my colleague Jenny is transferring CMP to art teachers. She's building this whole infrastructure of how CMP will help art teachers plan better. And that's never really been done before, but her take on skill outcomes has kind of made us all like shake our head like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, back up. So it it's like an endless coach or referee or cheerleader or whatever for thinking about music education. It never gets tired. You guys still awake?
SPEAKER_03I was gonna share something, but they would just tease me about talking too much. So I decided to filter that out. Aren't you proud of me, guys? No.
SPEAKER_02Um hey, it's a there's a first for everything. Um uh Randy, I wanted to backtrack just a little bit to music advocacy. I know you said you aren't an expert or anything, but you have spent a lot of time with people who are pretty good at it. And I'm wondering uh to to backtrack to that is we've talked a lot about how to advocate and different ways that's been come up now in probably our last six podcasts, almost every one this season. My question is for you who are we supposed to be advocating to? Who what where is our message not getting?
SPEAKER_01Or who is it not getting to? That is something I think about a lot, actually. I think it's a million-dollar question, and I don't think I have a great answer. I think the answer is kind of everybody. Um I I do think, I can't remember who it was that you had that said, we've been we've been talking about uh advocacy for a long time. Why are we still having to talk about it? But I feel that way about a lot of good things in in um in the liberal arts sphere, you know, where it's like stuff that it's not quick and easy, so people just are like, whatever, I don't care about that. You know, uh all I care about did the Packers win or lose? That's all I really care about, right? Something that's just really quick and really easy. They lost it. Yeah, I know, I know, but I'm very aware with I had family members at the game, so it was like, you know, there was a sadness that fell over the house. Um but but most people, our our culture is not encouraging uh treasuring the things that take longer and more thought and more uh just more commitment, more whatever. I mean, that's still happening. Obviously, kids are still playing soccer and sticking with it, kids are still playing the clarinet and sticking with it. There must be kids somewhere that are still reading books. I don't know, I don't really see them, but I think there are still books. I think you can still buy books. Um but here's the here's the real answer to your question, Phil. I think if we were better at showing kids behind the curtain why what we're doing with them, why we're doing it the way we're doing, and actually checking for understanding, like getting them to own it, like this is why they would grow up to be better at talking about like rather than how do kids usually talk about their high school music? It's like it was super fun. We went to Orlando and like I met my girlfriend there, and we played this really cool piece. I mean, it's all good stuff, none of that is not valuable. It's just that that's not really kind of the main point. And I don't think we've been very good at like for ourselves being able to say what the main point is and also getting kids to be able to say it back so that they've in they've internalized it.
SPEAKER_03So we don't actually I mean the people in our sphere don't even understand what's going on, or maybe we're we're in love with the idea of a band or orchestra activity more than actually teaching through orchestra or through band or whatever that we do in music. Um and then do you think also there's a spiral curriculum? Like people think they understand when you talk about it because they can empathize, but until you've experienced it, it's not a real understanding, or maybe that's not necessary. I just feel like the the principal that was a band kid has an understanding when I say something that's different than the parent that just appreciates that their kid loved their experience. Yeah, and although that's the person I have a hard time advocating to is somebody who's never been part of music.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I will say I I totally agree with the with the idea of what you're saying, but honestly, I'd almost rather have a principal who wasn't in band than a principal who was in band. Because sometimes the ones who were in band, um that's a different kind of principle. Uh Do you you want a band director principal? Well, in my imagination, having a band director having a principal who was a former band director sounds ideal, but in my actual lived out experience, sometimes it's like, oh, I wish you did you have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. But I think I think you're right. Like I I'm just happy to be able to do that. No offense, Levi.
SPEAKER_03Fan of the show. No offense, Levi. Levi Lundack. Great principal, great band director.
SPEAKER_01I've known some great principals too, some really great principles. Principals get a bad rap and they have an impossible job. So true.
SPEAKER_04Speaking of impossible, um, Phil, let's talk a little bit.
SPEAKER_03I mean, do you want to say this sign you just held up on the screen for our listener?
SPEAKER_04No, I threw it away. What was it?
SPEAKER_03It was I said, whoa, a good question from Phil. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Whoa, good question. And I gave it a grade. I gave it a grade because I'm all about grades and carrots and sticks and things like that.
SPEAKER_01Uh Randy, you just how I'm tracking this whole podcast watching the super titles that appear on the screen. Thank you.
SPEAKER_04There's a lot, there's a lot of things going on. Um, your work with equity and focusing on like hip-hop. Like you have really embraced an initiative here to really give on-ramps to educators about hip-hop pedagogy and so on. What are you most proud of regarding that work?
SPEAKER_01Oh, what a great question. I didn't expect I didn't see that coming, and I'm really glad you asked. A plus. Golly. Another A plus. I really briefly, Chris has heard the story before. I was a late comer to hip-hop because when hip-hop was thriving, I was a high school teacher too busy to really pay attention to it, which is just stupid, right? That was just I I was trying to learn everything about everything about everything about music, and I was trying to figure out Chostakovich, you know, like because I did not grow up in a home where anybody told me anything about Chostakovich. So I was I was just desperate to learn everything that I could. And it was really our Simon, he was about maybe fifth grade or sixth grade, who said, I think you should really start listening to hip-hop. And I was like, no way, I don't have time, and I'm really not interested. And of course, what I was thinking about was like misogynistic rap. And he said, You should start with Hamilton. Now, Hamilton was brand new, really almost, almost still not very well known. And he picked out a couple tracks and he said, You like Mahler, you like Bach, you like Shakespeare, you like, you know, James Baldwin, you like all these deep things, and hip-hop can be that. And I think you're not giving it a fair shake. He was absolutely right. And I just jumped in the deep end of the pool and realized, like, this is a whole like really layered, deep, deeply textured, historically rich genre that is not going away. And it is, it is the number one genre in the in the world right now, like everywhere, and it's changing so, so quickly. So I just thought it's a frontier that I have to have to cross, not just for my students, because frankly, even in Madison, which is a real a true urban school district, um, w we have a lot of kids who are doing hip-hop. Like they they do rap battles, they write their own hip hip-hop lyrics, they you know, they freestyle or whatever. Most kids still don't listen to hip-hop uh that way in in any really profound way. And so when I'm using hip-hop in the classroom, I'm mostly functioning like an evangelist, right? Trying to get kids to take it seriously and realize like this is worth listening to. And I'm Chris knows this, but I'm really proud that the last I'm in my fifth year of actually creating an original hip-hop piece with my students every year that we write together and perform, you know, with in an acoustic setting. We it's not like we're not making a recording. Um it's it's live spoken word and singing. That was the other kind of breakthrough for me as a working with kids and singing, is that we writing a hook that they could sing and then the spoken word that comes from it. So I um it was just a good reminder, like there was a point where I realized I don't know everything, and there's a whole lot of music that I just need to if I want to call myself a professional music educator, I gotta get hip to hip-hop.
SPEAKER_04I got more. Can I ask another one? Or do you Please Can I do one more?
SPEAKER_03I brought on Randy because you we all know Randy so well. And I I the pause is I don't want to just go down. I've got a list of other things I want to talk about, but I'm assuming you also want to go after some things that Randy's amazing at, because he's amazing at the same time.
SPEAKER_04I never get to talk to him, so I I this is great. Um okay, I'll I'll do one more and then I'll I'll be quiet and just pet my rock. Okay, so you have been and continue to be one of my very best teachers. And I I mean that from sincerely. And recently you've had me really considering music appropriation, specifically for young band music. And I know I've talked to Phil and Peter about this as well. What things can teachers do to take some like initial steps to educate themselves and most importantly to prevent doing harm?
SPEAKER_01Oh wow, appropriation. That's a big thing. I there are still like little places, it's like whack-a-mole, where I think appropriation just raises its head and you're like, oh, there it is, and then you gotta kind of deal with it. But I'm trying to help kids see and I'll just pick like, you know, that sixth grade band piece or that seventh grade band piece that says it's using uh a Japanese melody, an ancient Japanese melody or whatever, but there's really nothing Japanese about the piece except a composer who has good intentions, I think in most cases, um, to try to connect with a different culture respectfully. But the composer doesn't really uh have a clue about anything truly Japanese. And to write a sixth grade band piece that pays any kind of homage or reveals anything, I guess is the word, reveals anything about Japanese music, that is a tall order. Like you have to really understand something deep about Japanese music, and you can't just steal a melody that you see in a book or that you hear on the on a YouTube video and then write a band piece around it and then call it like my way for kids to be quote multicultural or whatever. There's just still a lot of that happening. It's happening less in the choral world because there are these vigilantes. I mean, seriously, like people in the choral world that are just like watching for this and calling it out like immediately, like, stop singing that, right? Be what you are you're making money off of a marginalized group and you're not even acknowledging what you're you know, what you're doing. But I will say this, I think the whole appropriation conversation is complex. And what is to one person appropriation is uh to another person appreciation, like somebody really trying hard to to bridge a gap. And I think um I mean I'm a middle-aged white man. I just have to I have to think about this, right? I have to think about ways that the whole world has been constructed with me as normal. I'll pause for a joke. Go ahead. Who wants to take this one? We look a lot the same. Keep going. I think we both have to be.
SPEAKER_04Let's face it.
SPEAKER_01You know, like like maybe not normal looking, just sort of kind of normal. Good save, Phil. Thank you. Um like I I'm I'm supposed to be the norm, right? And everything else is is interpreted or wow, this podcast just got really serious. I can feel it. Um that everything else is judged as other or interesting or cool or whatever against my my normalness as a as a white man. And I'm just trying to help kids to we can't we can't always change that, but we can definitely call it out. So kids are like, oh yeah, I guess there is another way to to think about things. Because for a lot of kids, Randy Swiggum is not the norm, right? That's not the norm in their life. So it's hard though. I mean, we're we're at the front end of this work, and I think in music we have really great opportunities to to do it. And I think uh all all areas band, choir, orchestra, general music, modern band, everybody, everybody's really trying to do this, and it's way better than it was 20 years ago.
SPEAKER_04Right. And even visual art, dance, yeah, visual art, too.
SPEAKER_01We have a way to go.
SPEAKER_04Yep, I agree.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03How are those standards coming over there, Christopher?
SPEAKER_04Uh done.
SPEAKER_02Well, sort of. Did you say there's no more standards?
SPEAKER_03There's just that's we have no standards. As long as you're in his basement, no standards.
SPEAKER_04Are we talking about the show? I thought we were talking Oh, you mean music standards? Oh, oh, I thought you were just talking about the we've never had standards on the show. Phil, surprise us. Come on, give us something. Anything more?
SPEAKER_02Um of the things that we have been talking about a little bit in my neck of the uh um educational galaxy, which is uh probably distant galaxy far, far away is the idea of letting young teachers or uh you know, people that we see, developing teachers, you know, music education majors, um letting them make mistakes and fail. So make a wrong choice and then figure out where it's gonna go from there, either recovery or regroup, try again. And the idea that sometimes it's okay to let a young teacher or a developing teacher make that mistake and then learn from it. And I'm wondering if you have a an idea comment on that, uh Randy, at all.
SPEAKER_01Well, number one, I am terrible at what you just described because my MO is just to swoop in and fix it. Like, you know, directly say to them, don't ever do that again. Um this is not a great teaching strategy, and I'm getting better at letting people, you know. I I also work in a district where we have professional coaches, and I am technically a coach. So I'm trying to take all my Elena Aguilar um wisdom and just be better at asking the questions that make them figure it out. But let's be honest, you get two things when you do that. One, it takes a lot longer for the change to happen, but the change sticks. It just sticks better because they're figuring it out. And I have I mentioned that I'm a middle-aged white dude. This is a huge yeah, did I mention that? It's a huge disadvantage with young teachers because sometimes my reputation just gets in the way with them. Like they're so they so wanna impress me or please me. Uh and I I think it's it would be true with any authority figure for them because they just know that like this is a person that knows what he's talking about. So they get a little freaked out and and I have to just let them figure it out and keep encouraging them to like, you're on the right track, like you'll figure this out, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03So that's do you think the next mistake though, uh they repair faster because of the experience with the longer mistake, like in a rehearsal situation when you let them figure it out a bit more than just telling them the right thing to do? It takes time up front, but it saves time later.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think you're on to something. I think there are certain things that I don't want them to have to take three months to figure out. I know if I just say it, they'll be like, oh, yeah, duh, and it will be fixed immediately, right? And the wise coach knows, or the wise music education professor knows which things those are and which things are just gonna take take longer. And also every future music teacher is also unique, right? Some of them are like spongy and they just absorb it. By the way, can I just say, Phil, some of our best um teachers come from your institution. I mean, you you are I mean Chris is the exception, don't worry. They work with Jon Stewart, that's why. I wasn't thinking Chris, actually, but um, that's a generous compliment. Good choice.
SPEAKER_02That's a good choice.
SPEAKER_01I will take no credit. I will say this. I wish I wish every you gotta take some. Come on. I mean, you are still employed, right? Um today. Today, right. I there's a there's a huge energy in music education collegiate level right now with getting kids to think about the things that Chris has already brought brought up, like appropriation and the equity moves and um modern band and hip hop. I mean, this is what I'm often talking about is like, how do you do hip-hop in a seventh grade choir, right? You're not gonna you you don't do covers of Jay-Z. There's no such thing as a cover in hip-hop. You've got to create original work, but how do you do that with seventh graders? And all that is important and it matters, but we haven't added any time or credits to the to the requirements. And so something has to go. And honestly, I hate to say this, but what's going is like how to actually plan a lesson. Like, I have so many young teachers who like I'm like, did you did you not have a day where you just talk about like how to plan a 30-minute general music lesson? They're like, no. I'm like, okay, well, let's learn, let's learn how to do that, right? So there's just not enough time in the college four-year program to learn everything you need to need to learn. And that's totally true.
SPEAKER_03I will also say there also some of them treat college like they're in a class instead of being a future teacher and absorbing in a way because it's still theoretical. And they're saying, I'm not gonna do general music, I'm gonna be an orchestra director. That's for somebody else, and I'm tired, so I'm gonna just do this lesson and go away. And then I'll be like, Well, what do we do when we talked about fundamentals? They're like, We talked about fundamentals. I am like, oh my God, if I don't, I gotta walk away, I'm gonna punch you in the face. Like, this is I can't believe that you just said that. And everybody else looked around, like, where were you last year? And the kid was like, I guess I just I don't remember that. And they were like, Well, but I was like, okay, doesn't stick with everybody. So even when there is time, things that you do, they still, I'm not gonna need that. I'm I'm never gonna teach drama music.
SPEAKER_01So we have arrived at the moment at the podcast that I guess was gonna happen where the four men who are who are over 40 basically say, Keep going, uh, uh, Gen Z, uh kids. Kids these days, get off my lawn. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um you're driving too fast. Slow down. All right. Who's got a speed round? Come on, let's go. I got a speedrun right here. Hold on.
SPEAKER_04All right, Peter's gonna wow us. I can't wait for this. Yes, it's gonna be great. It always is.
SPEAKER_03Mount Horeb's most famous uh resident. So here we go. We have a 60-second speed round about Mount Horeb, Wisconsin.
SPEAKER_01Can I just clear a former resident? I grew up there. I moved away at 18. I have never lived there. I am not Patty Schlafer.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_04Trolls. Number one, the answer is trolls. Go on.
SPEAKER_01You're actually close.
SPEAKER_03The world's famous as the what capital of the world? The troll capital of the world. Yep. The main drag downtown isn't called Main Street, it's called The Troll Way. Uh Dozens of massive hand-carved wooden trolls line the streets created by a local chainsaw artist named Um, I forget his name because I had moved away when that started.
SPEAKER_01Michael Feeney. Um, yeah, Michael Feeney. Very good.
SPEAKER_03Ground zero for troll lovers is the blank uh this blank shop guarded by a giant troll named the Gardener. Open house imports. Underground Marvels, just outside the town, lies the Cave of the Mounds, which you've worked at. Yeah, national landmark discovered accidentally by quarry workers in the year 1939. Oh my god, you are so good at this. The town was sold heavily uh by um Norwegians, Germans. Yeah, Norwegian immigrants. That's good. And uh the best diner and bakery that you have to stop by, the must-eat food, it's a local staple serving classic Scandinavian treats since the 1900s is called.
SPEAKER_01Well, when I was a kid, it was called Olsens, and then it was called Schubert's. And I think they maybe still call it Schubert's. They do.
SPEAKER_03This is even better than AI. He has both names of the place, Olsen's and Schubert's. And the mascot, of course, of the high school is uh the Vikings. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04He destroyed that. Like just the little correct button is gonna break. You know what?
SPEAKER_01I'm so glad you had a question, though, about Schubert's slash Olsen's, because that was my experience. I didn't realize it at the time, but what we did here tonight, like four old men sitting around, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's what that place always was to me. We'd go in there to get Yeah, exactly. It's just old men sitting around with bad coffee, bad Lutheran coffee, and talking like, well, actually, never like what we were just doing, but kind of with the same, with the same, I don't know. You you made the analogy, you understand it. Appropriation.
SPEAKER_04No, I'll give you appropriation. Get off my lawn. Appropriate this. No, we'll end with this. Randy, thank you for coming on. You're a dear friend, uh a mentor, and God bless you, man. Keep doing it.
SPEAKER_02You know, Randy, it could have been enough to just be a great teacher for your whole career. Um, but you have just continued to give and give and give to um the field and give to other teachers and former students and current students. You just keep there seems to be a relentless tank of energy for music and and sharing. It's really remarkable. Thanks.
SPEAKER_03You're not only an ideal educator, but also musician, conductor, mentor, all of that. It's pretty crazy cool. And to watch you help revolutionize how we teach, even starting back in the 80s and continuing to do that and lead the way today is pretty special.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate it. I appreciate you guys. Everything you said about me, I can just throw back at you because that's that's who you guys are.
SPEAKER_02So you stay here another 10 minutes, you'll change your tune. It's a quick change. Still don't know what laconic means. No idea what laconic means.
SPEAKER_01Doesn't that mean like thoughtful and slow or like Phil? That's isn't that lugubrious? Maybe.
SPEAKER_04Maybe it's well, maybe they have the same route. Using very few words to express an idea or a reply. That is not us at all. Few words, lot of positive words. Few words to express an idea.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Thank you. It seems like a medical term. That doesn't seem like the definition, but whatever.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's like himiola. It seems like a medical term.
SPEAKER_04It is.
SPEAKER_01I had a hemiola once.
SPEAKER_03Glad you got the shots for that. That's a long podcast, but it's worth every minute. And I love how he always starts with like, well, I don't really know if I do anything, and then like the words of golden wisdom just start spewing forth from the deoda of music education. Love that guy.
SPEAKER_04Yep. I feel bad. I should have he should have been on the first week. Oh crap. Um, that's good though. I'm glad you brought him on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. He was on my list because we were doing the Malcolm Burke episode and you threw him on, and I was like, why hasn't Randy been on? Yeah. That's really smart.
SPEAKER_02It is slightly embarrassing that the three of us hadn't done it sooner. But this is true. We got him, and it was great. It's fabulous. I think he sells himself short. Oh, in my honest opinion. Peter, you were hinting at it, but I'm going to out him that he uh has the uh you know this wonderful blend of you know, you know, years and years of experience doing it successfully. But man, who walks into a new situation and just finds a way to connect with kids right out of the gate immediately? Like that's a special teacher. I don't care if it's a first-year teacher or a 95th-year teacher. Like if you can connect that fast and that quickly and make something happen, that's just that's an incredible gift and one that we should all try to emulate.
SPEAKER_03I mean, you talked about that emotional intelligence, but he is so creative. I mean, in that way, that's why he and Chris are so kismet, right? They're like brothers in that sense. And they all and they also both are willing to reflect and just change on a dime if there's a better idea. They don't, they don't hold any like, you know, there's no insecurities about the fact that that was the wrong choice last time and this one's better. It's like, oh well, this one's better, let's do it. And that combination, and then his willingness, like he got in on CMP and then he committed to it, and he brings others to it. He's a hard worker. Man, and he's lucky to have him.
SPEAKER_04Well, yeah, and I I honestly don't think people appreciate appreciate all that he's given already to the state and his depth of thinking. I mean, you heard about just the conference idea himself. He will think deeply about concepts and just bringing in, you know what I mean, like all of these, you know. I mean, I need he's figured out how to get her from Australia all the way over and to create a whole conference that is weaving all of these ideas together. I mean, he does that for years, constantly.
SPEAKER_03People should have him out for their honor orchestra. I bet he'd be great for that experience. Right.
SPEAKER_04Everyone, yeah, write in, get him. I think honor band, I think you should involve him.
SPEAKER_03I mean, the guy works, he that's the other. I mean, all joking aside, right? He's worked with every age of student. He's worked in every large ensemble medium from the littles to the pros in every single one of those mediums. That is crazy.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04And he can get up there with Madison Symphony and do a pre-concert talk and own it. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Have you guys ever been to the pre-concert talk for the Eau Claire Tremont Ensemble concerts? Oh, is that? I didn't know Trumble joint. Well, no, it takes place at the Hardy's. It's just down like a block and a half from school. And there is an entry fee. Everyone has to buy, like, you know, a triple decker kind of hamburger. And then uh it's a common, it's just a bit basically, you know, see who can understand who with a full mouth of hamburger. And you give me crap about the video.
SPEAKER_04Um, hey, do you want a boozler tonight? Otherwise, we're gonna do a preview for what's gonna happen in our next episode. What do you want?
SPEAKER_03Oh, I I don't even know which do you think would be better. I mean, I like the boozler.
SPEAKER_02It's a little moment, but also short, sh very short boozler. It's gonna have to be a two-sentence uh wrap-up.
SPEAKER_04Okay, uh two short uh boozler. Uh dear gentlemen, you suck. Okay, um, here's the other part. Next time, we have the great and wondrous Paul Kyle coming back with the band Buzzler. Don't be confused. That is coming back. And if you want to learn more, where are you gonna read it? You're gonna read it in the frickin' show notes, people.
SPEAKER_03Wow, still back. But I gotta say, yeah, it's always in the show notes, but nobody reads them.
SPEAKER_02Uh what are show notes?
SPEAKER_04Beyond Artless is sponsored by Beyond the Notes Music Festival. Our mission is to create and provide profound learning and social experiences through music that go beyond the notes. Visit BTN Music Festival dot com to learn more.
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